The Brian Hoyer thread...

[The Human Q-Tip]

And that's fine. Shove today's stats down my throat all you want, I won't argue that point now.

But I was referring to his stats going into yesterday and dwelling on the previous argument where many called him average when his stats at that time said otherwise.

Call him average all you want now. The stats will back you up. I'm simply saying I think he bounces back.

Actually, the stats have him as below average now. But that actually wasn't my main point.

My main point pertained specifically to accuracy. In response to the "five good games" point, I said that there were problems with Hoyer's accuracy even in those 5 games. Even before this game, his completion % was 60.4, which would put him at 28th.

I just don't think you can be successful long term in this league with a QB who is in the bottom 5 in completion %. So for me, I'd need to see more than just a "bounce back" to having the 28th best completion % in the league.

And just to reiterate something I said upthread, I am not in favor of benching him in favor of Manziel at this point, so that's not what this is about. It's about evaluating Hoyer on the same grading scale as everyone else instead of on the "Shitty Cleveland Quarterback Curve."

 

[AZ_]

Framing... Cherry pick QBR and completion percentage to display your case. Completely ignoring the most credible rating which doesn't fit your point.

Why is this the most credible rating?

 

[MRMsix6]

Completely ignoring the most credible rating which doesn't fit your point.

Wait, which rating is the most credible one again?

ESPN QBR: 57.5 (21st)
Passer Rating: 88 (22nd)

 

[Binkster]

I'm not exactly understanding what the hell your end goal is here, guys? Bench Hoyer for Manziel? You actually believe that will give us a better chance to win?

Good luck with that. Hoyer has to prove he can bounce back, that's fine. One more test he will probably ace and we can go back to arguing whether he's really good or just good enough - the dumbass argument of the century.

 

[MRMsix6]

So by this logic, Brandon Weeden could have propelled us to that 3-2 record and the 9th best offense in the league? All he needs to do is stand by and watch amazing line play and a great running game, right?

If you're going to say that the running game opened up the passing game, couldn't that technically work both ways?

How you got from point A to point B in that argument is astounding. I must have missed the part where I said something anywhere close to "All he needs to do is stand by and watch amazing line play and a great running game, right?"

Weeden isn't as good as Hoyer - especially at running an offense and making good decisions, which is what has been asked of Hoyer. For the most part he has done that admirably. He just has a noodle for an arm and poor accuracy.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Framing... Cherry pick QBR and completion percentage to display your case. Completely ignoring the most credible rating which doesn't fit your point.

My case is accuracy. I freely acknowledge there are other aspects of QB play that are important, but I'm focusing on that one because I think it is one of the necessary skill for long term success. That's why I keep talking about % percentage, because it's the best measure we have of accuracy.

If you want to argue that a QB can be long-term successful with a completion % in the bottom 5, fine. Make the argument. If my emphasis on that stat as a necessary component of success ("cherry-picking") is wrong, you should be able to show that.

Bottom line is Hoyer needs to improve his accuracy, and that's taking into account all of the first six games, not just this one.

 

[Binkster]

He just has a noodle for an arm and poor accuracy.

Oh, come on.

This has been shot down repeatedly.

 

[Binkster]

Whoever said Johnny Manziel would be the most polarizing Browns' quarterback in 2014 was sadly mistaken.

 

[MRMsix6]

I'm not exactly understanding what the hell your end goal is here, guys? Bench Hoyer for Manziel? You actually believe that will give us a better chance to win?

Pretty much no one here is saying bench him for Manziel. (Tornicade isn't here, is he?) I surely don't want that to happen now. Hoyer would have to continue to play like shit and be a reason the Browns are losing games on a weekly basis for me to want to give Manziel a look before the year is out. Worst case for Hoyer, that's in 3-4 weeks. Fortunately, I don't think he'll be that bad consistently. He'll continue to be a middle of the road QB who shouldn't lose too many games by himself while providing average to below average QB production.

And why does there have to be an end game here? I though this was the thread for discussing Brian Hoyer and his QB play?

 

[Soda]

Why is this the most credible rating?

I'm saying that I don't think QBR is a very good stat at all. So when someone brings up QBR, my natural reaction is that the point is hollow.

On the other hand, using completion percentage as a measure of accuracy, to me, does make sense.

 

[elcheato]

His biased post implied that there is bias elsewhere on this board, I get it. He implied that Hoyer deserves less credit and more blame.

Maybe some people on here are too easy on him. I, for one, know he played shitty yesterday and deserves his share of the blame - but not all of it.

So what exactly are you getting at?

I didn't imply that Hoyer deserved more blame or less blame. I simply think it's funny when people are generalizing about Hoyer getting turned on in one game, when the same people are insinuating the receivers are terrible after just one bad week.

I also said in previous weeks that Hoyer definitely deserves credit for the Browns wins thus far.

And arguing that "people recognized the receivers were terrible from the get go" is not relevant, because there are people who didn't believe Hoyer was the answer at QB from the get go (you didn't make this argument, someone else did above, I'm just saying).

 

[Soda]

I didn't imply that Hoyer deserved more blame or less blame. I simply think it's funny when people are generalizing about Hoyer getting turned on in one game, when the same people are insinuating the receivers are terrible after just one bad week.

I also said in previous weeks that Hoyer definitely deserves credit for the Browns wins thus far.

And arguing that "people recognized the receivers were terrible from the get go" is not relevant, because there are people who didn't believe Hoyer was the answer at QB from the get go (you didn't make this argument, someone else did above, I'm just saying).

There were like 3 posters who think or thought that Hoyer is the long-term answer.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I'm saying that I don't think QBR is a very good stat at all. So when someone brings up QBR, my natural reaction is that the point is hollow.

That's fair. When you first go to the page, the QB's are listed by that rating by default, so that's why I included it. But I agree it isn't a great measure. Then I sorted based on completion % for the number I really wanted.

 

[AZ_]

I'm not exactly understanding what the hell your end goal is here, guys? Bench Hoyer for Manziel? You actually believe that will give us a better chance to win?

2+2 = potato

 

[Soda]

That's fair. When you first go to the page, the QB's are listed by that rating by default, so that's why I included it. But I agree it isn't a great measure. Then I sorted based on completion % for the number I really wanted.

Ya. For some reason, I wasn't seeing the accuracy statement..

What is odd, though, is that guys who have higher completion % also have a high "yards per pass attempt". It's not that way for Hoyer, who is 10th in the category, but yields a paltry 55% completion percentage. I would think that longer throwing QBs have more incompletions, but that doesn't seem to hold up.