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The Brian Hoyer thread...

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I am no Manziel fan, and I am absolutely not calling for a QB switch. That said, I gotta admit the excuses and rationalizing being done in Hoyer's defense have gotten tremendously annoying. Anytime anyone criticizes him and mentions that he may not be a long term answer, they are pelted by "best record by a Browns starter since X" or "oh yeah, I guess winning 5 of his last 8 means nothing" and other straw man arguments.

The fact is that Hoyer has only looked impressive this season with an elite running game (or when opposing defenses foolishly bite on the play action). Otherwise he's been inaccurate, wildly inconsistent, his decision making has looked slow, he's turned the ball over of late (and had many turnovers dropped by defenders...not sustainable), and he's layed his receivers out to dry by not hitting them in time/in stride.

But hey, HOYER is 5-3 right now...not the Cleveland Browns. And as for blaming his struggles on the absence of Cameron and Gordon, it just doesn't do it for me. Kyle Shanahan is doing a brilliant job and there are open receivers.

Here's hoping he figures out what's been going wrong. I'm enjoying every second of this season because we never win like this...but you're a fool if you don't recognize that we've been playing a cake schedule and still have left a lot to be desired on the field, including at the QB position. This type of thing is not sustainable, and I'm not looking forward to the inevitable regression if nothing changes.
 
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http://espn.go.com/blog/cleveland-browns/post/_/id/9361/hoyer-hating-seems-misguided-and-misplaced

Brian Hoyer-hating seems misguided and misplaced
November, 3, 2014

By Pat McManamon | ESPN.com

CLEVELAND -- There was a lot of Twitter noise during Sunday’s 22-17 victory over Tampa Bay about replacing Brian Hoyer at quarterback with Johnny Manziel.

It’s difficult to say that Twitter is an accurate reflection of the feelings of the masses, but there was enough negative commentary to think the Browns lost by 20.

At the stadium, two fans in front of the press box kept pointing to their watch and raising two fingers to say "time for 2?"

That leads to a simple question: Why?

Why ask that question about going to the backup when Hoyer was in the middle of a 300-yard, two-touchdown game? Because things weren’t perfect on every play? Because the Browns, a team that is growing, had to work to beat winless Oakland and one-win Tampa Bay?

Hoyer is not Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady, but he has played very effectively for the Browns. And he had a 300-yard game against Tampa Bay despite missing three Pro Bowl players: Jordan Cameron, Josh Gordon and Alex Mack.


AP Photo/David RichardBrian Hoyer, shown going over the game plan with offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan and backup Johnny Manziel on Sunday, is still regarded as a caretaker by many Browns fans.


In a 5-3 start, Hoyer has:
    • Won four of the last five, including a record-setting comeback in Tennessee and a thumping of Pittsburgh;
    • Won five-of-eight in the first half, setting the Browns up for an exciting second half that will include games that (gasp) matter;
    • Won 7 of 10 games he’s started and finished for the Browns;
    • Thrown for 10 touchdowns and four interceptions, with a 90.3 rating and 2,013 yards, putting him on pace for 4,000 in 16 games this season;
    • Guided three fourth-quarter comeback wins in 2014 (over Tennessee, New Orleans and Tampa Bay), and one other in 2013 (over Minnesota);
    • Come back from a 27-3 deficit in Pittsburgh to tie, and a 28-3 deficit in Tennessee to win.

The negatives: He has a completion percentage of 57.9 percent, which is low but pales compared to the won-lost record. The offense also has inconsistency during games that tackle Joe Thomas said is in part caused by Hoyer’s willingness to throw the ball away or take a sack rather than force a bad play.

Hoyer had one clunker of a game this season, in Jacksonville. That clunker seems to have affected the thinking of many, but not the coaching staff, which has never made a call to the bullpen to have Manziel warm up, much less for him to take a snap.

Then there is this tidbit: The team reported that Hoyer is the first Browns quarterback to throw for 200 yards in each of the first eight games of the season since Brian Sipe in 1983.

There is little reason at this point not to believe that the Browns belong to Hoyer for the rest of the season, and that Manziel won’t play -- until Hoyer is hurt or the Browns are out of playoff contention.

In other matters related to the win over the Bucs:
    • Haden on what he’d say to folks criticizing the Browns for wins that aren’t perfect: “There’s nothing to really say to them. If we would have lost the games, it would be worse than winning ugly.“
    • The Browns have played the league’s easiest schedule to this point, and starting Thursday in Cincinnati, things get tougher in a hurry. “We’ll be all in on this one,” coach Mike Pettine said. “Whatever it takes to find a way to go down there and get the ‘W,’ then get that long weekend off.”
    • Hoyer admitted the offense’s inconsistency is a concern that must be addressed. Averaging 53 yards per game running the ball after the injury to Alex Mack is also a major concern.
    • Special teams made major contributions as Billy Winn blocked a field goal and Craig Robertson got his hand on a punt. Winn’s play to block the field goal was most impressive as he hurdled two blockers immediately after the snap.
 
Hoyer's "struggles" and Shanny's "brilliance".... Lost me there...
 
I'm still on Hoyer's bandwagon but with injury depletion and still missing Josh Gordon I think some tough times are ahead for this offense vs teams that are actually halfway decent in the second half of our schedule. My prediction is that soon, the Hoyer camp won't have the "But he's winning!" argument. Would be absolutely shocked if he isn't shut down by Cincinnati in a tough loss on Thursday.

Hope I'm wrong.

@chrisrich91 and I seem to agree for once. My concern is sustainability. It'd be one thing if Mack was coming back, Cameron could stay on the field...well, Gordon will be back in a couple games.
 
I don't think Hoyer is great, and I'm not sure he's really the guy going forward. The realist in me still thinks we'll probably want an upgrade at the position going forward. Whether that's Johnny, or someone else.

But outside that absolutely horrendous Jacksonville game, where we can all agree, he was absolutely terrible. He's still putting up pretty productive numbers.

The two interceptions weren't good. But come on, Peyton Manning threw two picks this week, and I thought, played worse than Hoyer did. There aren't many times where you'll say that. I know, I know, New England is a better team. But geez, there's no Damaryius Thomas or Julian Thomas on our team either.

I'm just saying, if you want to say Hoyer has accuracy issues, doesn't always make the greatest throws, those are valid points. Hoyer's accuracy is never going to be great. There are only a few throws he can make pretty accurately on a regular basis. When the whether gets colder, it's not going to benefit him either.

But the guy only has 4 picks the entire season. Ball security has not been an issue. He had one game where he threw two picks. That's not enough to be critical of him.

All QB's are going to throw a few picks, I don't care who you are. It happens.

I think Johnny would be a disaster right now. The way our line is blocking lately, which isn't very good, you need a QB that's going to get rid of the ball fast.

Johnny is known to try to make plays with his feet, buying extra time. I mean, I don't care how elusive you are, this is the NFL. You're going to get beat up, if that's how you're going to play in this league. And you don't have a half decent line right now.

You definitely don't put Johnny in, when we're going through a transition with our offensive line.
 
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The Oi said:
What is driving everyone to keep this argument going?
Click to expand...
It is two brick walls arguing against each other. I honestly believe there is NO benefit to playing Johnny this year. This franchise time and time again has thrown a rookie qb into a terrible situation which has led to his downfall. Let him sit for a year and develop. Do all rookie qbs need time to sit? No but I believe with what we have seen with Johnny, he is a prime example of someone who needs some time to develop.
 
Jigo, to answer your question, take a look at which side the players, coaches, and professional media have chosen. Then take a look at the qualifications of the other side of this argument.

http://www.cleveland.com/budshaw/index.ssf/2014/11/cleveland_browns_140.html

CLEVELAND, Ohio – We have pretty much reached the point of absurdity in the Brian Hoyer Story.
On the same day Hoyer threw for 300 yards, won his fifth game of the season and thanked Tampa Bay's All-Pro tackle Gerald McCoy for a flattering review shared during the week, he also heard boos.

At home. While helping the Browns become relevant in November for the first time in seven years.

The craziest part? The Browns have set an incredibly low standard over the years. Yet Hoyer's team is disappointing because it doesn't put the dregs of the league away with complete dispatch?

As recently as last year, the Browns were Tampa Bay, Oakland and Jacksonville.

A year ago, Brandon Weeden and Jason Campbell couldn't make the plays Hoyer is making at big moments. And still, some otherwise sane people are leapfrogging the moment winning is finally happening at the lakefront to gripe that Hoyer isn't the long-range answer.

Who cares?

The Browns often give you reason to greet November by saying wait 'till next year. But this surely can't be one of those times, can it?

"Fans are fans," Joe Haden was saying after the Browns' 22-17 win over Tampa. "I can only say we believe in Hoyer. He's done a great job. He's what – 8-3 as a starter? On offense we have some injuries and he's doing the best he can do."

Haden plays on the side of the ball that wasn't missing three All-Pros, the side that was being gashed by former Browns running back Bobby Rainey for 80 yards in the first half.

There was less reason to believe the Browns would shut down the run in the second half than there was to imagine Hoyer directing a turnaround (it's his thing, after all). Both happened.

Hoyer, who has a track record of hot streaks dating to Minnesota last year, hit a stretch late in the first half through the initial drive of the second half where he connected on 11 consecutive passes.

He finished with 300 yards, two touchdowns and two interceptions. Other NFL starters go through equally inaccurate periods during games. Hoyer might be the only one whose three-and-outs routinely prompt TV cutaways to the backup QB. In this case, Johnny Manziel, the Browns' Cat in the Hat.

"We're doing a good job of finding ways to win," said Joe Thomas, who didn't mention they're playing without Alex Mack, Jordan Cameron and Josh Gordon. "Part of that is having a quarterback who's making the clutch throws."

One of those was the 34-yarder to Taylor Gabriel that became the game-winner. Hoyer ignored his intended target, prompting offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan to bark into his headset, "Why didn't he throw it?"
Mike Pettine remembered it as one of those "no, no, yes, yes" moments. Hoyer waited, got a great cut block from Terrance West on a blitzing Buccaneers linebacker and found Gabriel wide open. This time he hit him in stride.

"I tell our receivers, "If you see me looking around, just go deep," Hoyer said. "It wasn't always pretty the way our offense was playing. But if you look in the box score, we're 5-3.

"You never want to hear (boos) but, hey, we expect more from ourselves than our fans do. We thought we should be playing better."

What we know about Hoyer after eight starts this season and three a year ago is that he can look every bit like the undrafted free agent he was coming out Michigan State.

Then he's dropping a soft pass into Jim Dray's hands for 26 yards on third-and-one in a game the Browns trail, 10-9.

He can throw three passes in the shadow of his own goal line – two incompletions, a total of minus-2 yards -- then connect with Miles Austin for 25 yards on third-and-16. Is that all the benefit of playing poor defenses?
Perhaps no team or quarterback could use a game to give their season context as much as the Browns and Hoyer need Thursday night's prime time matchup in Cincinnati. At least that's what it feels like after playing three teams with a combined record of 1-and-a-trillion.

"We knew if we did well (the last three games) that we'd be playing a meaningful game in Cincinnati," said Hoyer.

They went 2-1, which beats two other possibilities.

No guarantee his play won't be boo worthy against the Bengals. But if Hoyer has proven anything in his career over two seasons it's that it's premature to count him down and out.

The Browns will go with him until they're not playoff contenders. For now, he's the starting quarterback for a 5-3 team in his hometown. It's a pretty cool story.

Let's not skip to the epilogue when the story is half over.
 
Holy shit, this is hilarious:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcsouth/po...oyer-on-how-he-handled-qb-battle-with-manziel

Gerald McCoy praises Moyer on how he handled QB battle with Manziel
October, 30, 2014
Oct 30
3:33
PM ET
By Pat Yasinskas | ESPN.com

TAMPA, Fla. -- All-Pro defensive tackle Gerald McCoy knows how to deal with the media better than any of the other Buccaneers. He knows he’s the most powerful voice in the locker room, and he isn’t afraid to say what’s on his mind.

i

McCoyMcCoy, obviously, had something on his mind Thursday. Unsolicited, he opened his weekly chat with the media with glowing praise of Cleveland quarterback Brian Hoyer. At the same time, McCoy certainly seemed to be taking a shot at Johnny Manziel without ever using the rookie’s name.

“First off, I want to say from me how much respect I have for Brian Hoyer and what he represents on the field,’’ McCoy said. “I don’t know who he is or what type of guy he is off the field. He’s in the starting role for a reason. He rightfully earned that role through all the circus that was going on in Cleveland.

“He never wavered. He kept his mouth shut, and he just performed, and he’s the guy who should be starting. He’s led them the way he should. He’s an athletic guy, smart, can make all the throws and is a huge reason why they are where they’re at. Starting with him, we’ve got to make sure we neutralize him.’’

The Browns drafted Manziel in the first round amid all sorts of hoopla. Manziel was the focus of all the preseason media hype. But Hoyer won the job and has a pretty firm grip on it with the Browns off to a 4-3 start.

Pat Yasinskas | email
ESPN Tampa Bay Buccaneers reporter


In the article about how much the All Pro opponent respects the no-name QB and that he does indeed deserve respect, ESPN spells Hoyer's goddamn name incorrectly!
 
The Oi said:
If you had to choose one guy to catch a punt late in a playoff game inside your own 10, would you go with Moyer, Poyer or Hoyer?

We're talking mid-90's 4.50-5.00 ERA Moyer.
Click to expand...

Manziel. :chuckle:

I'm interested to hear your take on why Browns fans can't see success when it's in front of them. Why are fans booing this team at 5-3 during a game they won? Do you think they know what they're talking about? Do you think they can affect a team/player? If not, what happened to Mark Sanchez in NY?
 
chrisrich91 said:
I am no Manziel fan, and I am absolutely not calling for a QB switch. That said, I gotta admit the excuses and rationalizing being done in Hoyer's defense have gotten tremendously annoying. Anytime anyone criticizes him and mentions that he may not be a long term answer, they are pelted by "best record by a Browns starter since X" or "oh yeah, I guess winning 5 of his last 8 means nothing" and other straw man arguments.

The fact is that Hoyer has only looked impressive this season with an elite running game (or when opposing defenses foolishly bite on the play action). Otherwise he's been inaccurate, wildly inconsistent, his decision making has looked slow, he's turned the ball over of late (and had many turnovers dropped by defenders...not sustainable), and he's layed his receivers out to dry by not hitting them in time/in stride.

But hey, HOYER is 5-3 right now...not the Cleveland Browns. And as for blaming his struggles on the absence of Cameron and Gordon, it just doesn't do it for me. Kyle Shanahan is doing a brilliant job and there are open receivers.

Here's hoping he figures out what's been going wrong. I'm enjoying every second of this season because we never win like this...but you're a fool if you don't recognize that we've been playing a cake schedule and still have left a lot to be desired on the field, including at the QB position. This type of thing is not sustainable, and I'm not looking forward to the inevitable regression if nothing changes.
Click to expand...

Regardless of how impressive Hoyer has looked, or what his limitations may be (most of us seem to acknowledge them, after all), you just don't change QBs when the team is winning and your starter is healthy.
 
Soda said:
Manziel. :chuckle:

I'm interested to hear your take on why Browns fans can't see success when it's in front of them. Why are fans booing this team at 5-3 during a game they won? Do you think they know what they're talking about? Do you think they can affect a team/player? If not, what happened to Mark Sanchez in NY?
Click to expand...


Cleveland fans are used to waiting for the other shoe to drop. They're doing that with Hoyer right now because his sample size remains small.

I think a player can affect himself if he's mentally weak and use the fans as an excuse.
 
I'm missing the "Thanks" button... I feel like I'm using Facebook. But, thank you Jigo for responding.
 
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