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The Brian Hoyer thread...

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Lee said:
Thread is not done, we havent even brought up the strengths and possibility of starting Connor Shaw.

He has moxie, poise and winner written all over him.
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Dude, come on! There is NO way Shaw jumps Manziel AND Hoyer this year!
 
jlj3184 said:
So Shaw citing "Twitter noise" and two fans pointing at their watch and holding up 2 fingers questioned their journalistic integrity? C'mon, Keys. It's click-bait, just like anything in print journalism these days. There are some fringe fans calling for Manziel, sure. The crowd boos shitty throws and poor clock management. It happens in every stadium.
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That has not been my experience. I've had the advantage of living on other cities and following other winning franchises. It is getting harder and harder for me to defend bad fans behaving badly.


If 615 out of 4372 yards (14%) makes him a main contributor, then sure. He was a main contributor. As for the ebarrassment of overreaction...Hoyer was 1/6 for 16 yards, an INT and a sack in the four drives after the opening field goal drive. The final drive actually looked decent until he took that sack, then the fans were booing Pettine for clock management - deservedly so, IMO. A few fringe Manziel fanatics calling for him should not prevent the rest of the "sane" portion of the fanbase from voicing their displeasure over shitty football. And the first half was shitty football. "Why not leave at halftime in a close game, it does less damage" - again, the "support Hoyer/the team blindly or you're a shitty fan" argument. Nonsense.
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Again, it was a close game. Aspects can go wrong with any team but what you are describing is the behavior acceptable in a 30 point blowout. I've attended close high school and pro football games for fans that weren't patently scarred from years of losing. I'm pretty confident Browns fans have completely forgotten how to react to a team that pulls out close games. They convince themselves its going to be a last minute heartache and act like they have seen the future rather than letting it play out. No, this isn't as common outside of the Browns stadiums as you seem to believe.

Um, it was a bad throw. My point is Hoyer shouldn't be given credit for playing without Pro Bowl player Cameron when his errant pass either directly or indirectly led to Cameron being out for the game.
"Cameron made a diving catch over the middle Sunday in the second quarter before he was struck by Oakland safety Brandian Ross."
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Sounds like Brandian Ross caused the concussion and Hoyer had a bad throw... which literally every QB does a few times a game unless its Joe Montana high on blow in a 1980s Super Bowl.
 
jlj3184 said:
He's graded out negatively in 5 games this year (3 of which we won anyway), but he's won 5 of 8 games.
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im going to take it this is a made up metric, devised by yourself?

his QB rating has only dipped below the the QB rating average (83.2), twice this year. he has above a 90, 5 times this year.

look he is not the end all be all to QBs, and does deserve criticism, but right now he is clearly grading out to a top 10-15 QB in the league.
 
bob2the2nd said:
im going to take it this is a made up metric, devised by yourself?
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He's most likely using Pro Football Focus numbers, which grade every player on every snap.

bob2the2nd said:
his QB rating has only dipped below the the QB rating average (83.2), twice this year. he has above a 90, 5 times this year.

look he is not the end all be all to QBs, and does deserve criticism, but right now he is clearly grading out to a top 10-15 QB in the league.
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What? How? He's 19th in passer rating, 23rd in passing TDs, 16th in yards per game, 30th in completion percentage, and he's run for -3 yards on the season. The best numbers I can dig up for Hoyer are a great yards per attempt (8.0, 8th in league) and his low turnover rate- but I'm curious as to what numbers you're looking at to say he's clearly grading out as a top 10-15 QB in the league.
 
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CosmoKramer said:
He's most likely using Pro Football Focus numbers, which grade every player on every snap.



What? How? He's 19th in passer rating, 23rd in passing TDs, 16th in yards per game, 30th in completion percentage, and he's run for -3 yards on the season. The best numbers I can dig up for Hoyer is a great yards per attempt (8.0, 8th in league) and his low turnover rate- but I'm curious as to what numbers you're looking at to say he's clearly grading out as a top 10-15 QB in the league.
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sorry the last time i was tracking him vs the rest of the league he was hovering in that range, and i took the 90 QB rating this year, along with the league average 83 to figure he was still up in that area. That said i think youre probably right i would definitely drop him into more of the 12-18 range, giving him the benefit of a low interception rate.
 
Randolphkeys said:
That has not been my experience. I've had the advantage of living on other cities and following other winning franchises. It is getting harder and harder for me to defend bad fans behaving badly.
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I haven't lived in the Cleveland area since 2002. I've attended games in Denver, Jacksonville, Green Bay and Cincinnati since then. The boo birds have been out in every stadium but Green Bay and that was last season when they destroyed the Browns. No one asked you to defend those you have personally deemed to be "bad fans behaving badly". You seem to be taking that charge upon yourself while declaring yourself a martyr in the process.

Again, it was a close game. Aspects can go wrong with any team but what you are describing is the behavior acceptable in a 30 point blowout. I've attended close high school and pro football games for fans that weren't patently scarred from years of losing. I'm pretty confident Browns fans have completely forgotten how to react to a team that pulls out close games. They convince themselves its going to be a last minute heartache and act like they have seen the future rather than letting it play out. No, this isn't as common outside of the Browns stadiums as you seem to believe.
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I presume you were, like myself, watching the game on TV this past weekend. The only boos I heard were during the atrocious clock management at the end of the half. I'm sure there were some boos here and there at other times, but framing it as though 80k fans are booing every Hoyer incompletion is ridiculous. Again, I have been to several different NFL stadiums and it is exactly as common as I'm making it out to be. Hell, Brady was getting boo'd earlier this season.

Sounds like Brandian Ross caused the concussion and Hoyer had a bad throw... which literally every QB does a few times a game unless its Joe Montana high on blow in a 1980s Super Bowl.
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Here's the video. Cameron is wide open across the middle but has to lay out for a pass that is both high and right of where it should be...by a pretty wide margin. I don't personally think the hit was dirty, but a decent throw makes it a non-issue. Play starts at 0:43.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000418308/Week-8-Raiders-vs-Browns-highlights
Or a vine with a different angle:
http://gamedayr.com/sports/nfl/jordan-cameron-scary-hit-raiders-123697/

I know arguing with a mod/admin is always a losing proposition, so I'll drop the back and forth at this point.
 
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bob2the2nd said:
im going to take it this is a made up metric, devised by yourself?

his QB rating has only dipped below the the QB rating average (83.2), twice this year. he has above a 90, 5 times this year.

look he is not the end all be all to QBs, and does deserve criticism, but right now he is clearly grading out to a top 10-15 QB in the league.
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As CosmoKramer said, it's PFF. It's largely recognized as the most comprehensive statistical analysis available to fans. I know better than to come on here posting made up stuff.

And I actually just looked at it again. He's graded out negative only 4 times. His week 9 grade changed some time tonight from -.1 to .2. Grades this year are: -.8, -1.0, .1, 2.5, 3.8, -2.6, -1.7, .2
 
AZ_ said:
Pretty good example of why looking solely at win/loss record is a great idea.
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I will always love Mark Sanchez for giving us butt-fumble, doesn't matter what he does the rest of his career.
 
Maximus said:
Apparently a lot of people voted Republican today. Shame it didn't happen two years ago. Thx.
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gatsby-rage.gif
 
Soda said:
In the same post you call Keys a "martyr"... C'mon mannnn. :chuckle:
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I have a lot of respect for @Randolphkeys and what he does for the site. As far as I can remember, we've never had an exchange in the past. I do take offense when people define fans voicing displeasure as bad fans because they don't agree with them. I think the Browns have some of the best, most dedicated fans in the league. A few on the lunatic fringe does not change that.
 
I keep responding because I keep getting these notices. If you have said your peace, cool, I've said mine. I do believe Browns fans are wonderfully dedicated. They are the reason Cleveland still has any franchise at all.

However, the 15 years of a bad product has left them with a decisively negative and defeatist collective mindset. I don't mean to blame Mike Polk, who I've down a few beers with before, but his film shorts kind of galvanized a fan base to his "Factory of Sadness/ I have to follow this bullshit against my own will" theme. I think carrying the 4-12 mindset into a season which has been successful halfway through deserves a course correction.

And that has been on my mind lately, that's all.
 
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