The Brian Hoyer thread...

[elcheato]

Binkster is embarrassing himself.

 

[CosmoKramer]

Yet people did... in this thread... I remember because it was the first post I had called flat-out "terrible" in a few years... that's why it came back up.

I'd agree it makes no sense to blame a QB for injuries to his pass catchers, I'm just asserting that Hoyer made a bad throw on that particular pass. A perfectly placed pass from Hoyer slightly decreases the chance of an injury on that play, but the safety launching himself into Cameron's head was still the biggest factor in him suffering a concussion.

He's played extremely well in the mean time though, he even made the front page of Grantland today as the QB of the All-Bargain team. Still amazed we're getting this kind of production out of a guy that's earning less than what Pat McQuistan is currently making.

 

[Henry Tuttle]

In my 5-minute Booms dose this morning

Non-sequitur, but please...don't give into the temptation of listening to those morons. We all need to band together to get them off the radio and no longer representing NEOH sports.

 

[Maximus]

Anyone have video of the alleged shitty pass to Cameron?

 

[jlj3184]

Yet people did... in this thread... I remember because it was the first post I had called flat-out "terrible" in a few years... that's why it came back up.

Thought we had moved on, but guess not. The exact quote was "He doesn't have 3 Pro Bowl players. How about mentioning that one of them is out because his throw put them in a position where they got hit so hard they were concussed?"

Let me ask a few direct questions:
1) Was the throw off target?
2) If yes, would the ball being placed where it should have been likely (since talking in absolutes about unprovable is senseless) kept Cameron from being concussed?
3) If yes to both, what is "terrible" about the above quote?

 

[jlj3184]

Anyone have video of the alleged shitty pass to Cameron?

#1207, provided the links still work.

 

[Randolphkeys]

He doesn't have 3 Pro Bowl players. How about mentioning that one of them is out because his throw put them in a position where they got hit so hard they were concussed?

Here is your quote. It directly says that Hoyer's throw caused a concussion. It's still utterly terrible. It's as terrible as saying "The offensive coordinator calls crossing routes over the middle, which puts tight ends at risk for safeties to take shots at their head which have been illegal for over 20 years." It's as bad as, "Who taught the QB to stand in the pocket and throw the ball away when the line breaks down? They should take a knee just in case a lineman hits the QB illegally after the ball is thrown." or "How dare the kicker get full extension on that contested field goal? A special teamer might run into the plant leg and then the team can't kick anymore field goals all game." The risk of a defender breaking rules that were around for over 20 years is just part of the game.

Was the pass off the mark? of course, nobody argued that. I argued that your quote that the concussion was Hoyer's fault rather than the illegal hit was fucking stupid .

 

[jlj3184]

Here is your quote. It directly says that Hoyer's throw caused a concussion. It's still utterly terrible. It's as terrible as saying "The offensive coordinator calls crossing routes over the middle, which puts tight ends at risk for safeties to take shots at their head which have been illegal for over 20 years." It's as bad as, "Who taught the QB to stand in the pocket and throw the ball away when the line breaks down? They should take a knee just in case a lineman hits the QB illegally after the ball is thrown." or "How dare the kicker get full extension on that contested field goal? A special teamer might run into the plant leg and then the team can't kick anymore field goals all game." The risk of a defender breaking rules that were around for over 20 years is just part of the game.

Was the pass off the mark? of course, nobody argued that. I argued that your quote that the concussion was Hoyer's fault rather than the illegal hit was fucking stupid .

But that's not what it says, Keys. Your extreme "comparisons" not withstanding, the point I was originally making is Hoyer shouldn't get brownie points for playing without Cameron who was hurt on a play where he dove for (and caught) a bad pass by Hoyer. Hoyer's pass didn't hit him in the helmet, so no, it didn't cause the concussion. But if the ball had been on the mark, Cameron isn't in a defenseless position to take the illegal hit from Ross. Could he have launched and caused a concussion? Sure. Could he have been injured on the very next play trying to block? Sure. Cameron has definitely shown the ability to get concussed in the past, but I'll maintain my opinion that a good throw on that play and Cameron is probably still playing this week. If you deem that to be "terrible", so be it.

I hate slanted homer articles which cherry pick "facts" without telling the whole story. That's what originally got me fired up.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Following your logic requires me to pretend slippery slope arguments are a rational grounds for a debate. Since it is a fallacy rather than a logical strategy, I cannot agree that Hoyer's throw caused a concussion. The illegal hit caused the concussion.

Was the defender going for the ball? No. Therefore the throw wasn't the cause. The illegal hit was the cause. Anything gin addition is like arguing West is at fault for getting nowhere on the previous run play or Hawkins was at fault for getting a first down previously to keep the drive alive. The slippery slope is a fallacy because it isn't the clear direct cause, in this case an illegal hit.

If Hoyer threw the ball at a brick wall and Cameron ran into that brick wall, I'd say you have a good point. That would be a direct causation. But, this is a slippery slope fallacy in which something that normally wouldn't cause a concussion is at fault.


So anyways, I've said my peace on that play. And I will continue to mention that yes, Hoyer throws about three bad throws a game.

 

[jlj3184]

All well and good except you're making my claim out to be something it is not (the throw directly caused the injury).
A slippery slope is only a fallacy when the warrant is incorrect. The warrant "if the throw had been on target he probably wouldn't have been concussed" indeed connects the events 1) Hoyer's throw was off the mark, leading Cameron to be in a defenseless position, and 2) the defenseless position is what drew the flag and illegal hit, which caused the concussion. If you disagree with the warrant, that's one thing, but it doesn't make the argument a fallacy.

Had I said, "Hoyer ate Corn Flakes for breakfast so Cameron got hurt", it would be a fallacy.

A baseball bat causes a home run, but the pitcher missing his spot is often a contributing factor. The pitcher didn't hit the home run, but it probably wouldn't have been a home run had the ball been straight to the catcher's mitt.

 

[bob2the2nd]

Thought we had moved on, but guess not. The exact quote was "He doesn't have 3 Pro Bowl players. How about mentioning that one of them is out because his throw put them in a position where they got hit so hard they were concussed?"

Let me ask a few direct questions:
1) Was the throw off target?
2) If yes, would the ball being placed where it should have been likely (since talking in absolutes about unprovable is senseless) kept Cameron from being concussed?
3) If yes to both, what is "terrible" about the above quote?

because number 2 is flat out wrong. when watching that replay if your determination is that hoyer is to blame for the concussion then youre not watching the same replay as me.

this called an illegal hit (implying the CB did something wrong), and you hold it against the guy that threw the ball, not the guy that did the hitting.

 

[The Oi]

Putrid argument to continue having. Just beyond pointless.

This is football. Injuries happen, bad passes happen, illegal hits happen.

All of those things happen to every single team in the league many, many times per year.

Quarterbacks aren't judged on the injuries that occur to their receiver on a single pass that resulted in an illegal hit. They are judged by how they respond to losing key players when they do get hurt. Why does anyone gaf about that pass to where it's worth debating several weeks later?

This is a complete nothing conversation.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Back to Hoyer... he has stated he won't make public statements about his contract for the rest of the season, but Grantland recently threw out out an idea of short-term contract for Chad Henne money (8 million a year). That would last the amount of time Manziel is on a rookie deal.

Any thoughts on that figure, granted its for as long as Manziel is on his first contract?

 

[CosmoKramer]

Back to Hoyer... he has stated he won't make public statements about his contract for the rest of the season, but Grantland recently threw out out an idea of short-term contract for Chad Henne money (8 million a year). That would last the amount of time Manziel is on a rookie deal.

Any thoughts on that figure, granted its for as long as Manziel is on his first contract?

I'd love Hoyer on Henne's figure, because he's actually only making $8 million over 2 years, not per year.

By my admittedly sloppy cap numbers we'll have roughly $24 million heading into the offseason before any other extensions. With Farmer's ability to pull high-level free agents (Whiter, Dansy, Tate) I'd rather not give Hoyer $8 million a year, that's steep for a career backup. Kyle Orton just signed for 2 years, $11 million before the season- I'd be fine with something a slightly bigger but his contract is a good barometer for what Hoyer should expect.

 

[Maximus]

Back to Hoyer... he has stated he won't make public statements about his contract for the rest of the season, but Grantland recently threw out out an idea of short-term contract for Chad Henne money (8 million a year). That would last the amount of time Manziel is on a rookie deal.

Any thoughts on that figure, granted its for as long as Manziel is on his first contract?

We have zero chance of getting him at $8m a year in my opinion.