The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread (includes spoilers)

[The Human Q-Tip]

The book basically confirms it was Joffrey.

I also don't know how, realistically, it could have been Littlefinger. He wasn't in Winterfell with the king's party. He was still at King's Landing. He couldn't possibly have known that Bran would witness Jaime and Cercei banging it out and then be pushed to the ground and crippled. I think he simply took the opportunity when Catelyn asked him about the knife to further stoke the fires of the Lannister/Stark rivalry by saying that the knife belonged to Tyrion.

A very long time ago, Elio Garcia, the guy who runs the Westeros website and is GRRM's buddy, tried to get around this argument by saying that Littlefinger could have delegated some "sow chaos" authority to a catspaw who then tried to kill Bran. He eventually gave up and acknowledged that Littlefinger not being in Winterfell when it happened was a theory-killer.

 

[Jack Brickman]

A very long time ago, Elio Garcia, the guy who runs the Westeros website and is GRRM's buddy, tried to get around this argument by saying that Littlefinger could have delegated some "sow chaos" authority to a catspaw who then tried to kill Bran. He eventually gave up and acknowledged that Littlefinger not being in Winterfell when it happened was a theory-killer.

Yeah, I won't say it's outright impossible that it was Littlefinger in some capacity, but the books seem to pretty much confirm it was Joffrey. And given all we know at this point, that makes the most sense.

I think that Littlefinger's rise in the books/show is equal parts luck and planning. He plans for a great deal, and is always working angles behind the scenes, but he also knows how to alter his plans and change direction when he catches a lucky break, like when Cat shows up with the knife in King's Landing.

There's obviously no way that Littlefinger could have known that Cat would have run into Tyrion on the way home and taken him captive. That was pure luck for him as well. His objective in telling her it was Tyrion's knife wasn't to lead to that exact outcome, but simply to ensure that the conflict between the two houses would soon turn physical.

He clearly did set up Ned at the brothel, though. Too convenient that Ned was about to leave the city and head home before being attacked by Jaime, which ensured he stayed there to die. I also think that it was definitely Littlefinger who convinced Joffrey to go back on his word and kill Ned. Varys hints that there was someone behind it, and given that we hear Varys and Illyrio talking about how things are moving too fast between the wolves and lions, it doesn't make sense for it to have been Varys.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Yeah, I won't say it's outright impossible that it was Littlefinger in some capacity, but the books seem to pretty much confirm it was Joffrey. And given all we know at this point, that makes the most sense.

The problem with the catspaw theory is that there is zero evidence Littlefinger would ever trust someone else with information that could so easily bring him down. He managed to survive (up until the end) all his schemes precisely because there was nobody who could ever truly betray him. He manipulated people into doing things that he wanted them to do, but always kept deniability. There's simply no plausible explanation for how he could have been behind the attempt to assassinate Bran.

I think that Littlefinger's rise in the books/show is equal parts luck and planning. He plans for a great deal, and is always working angles behind the scenes, but he also knows how to alter his plans and change direction when he catches a lucky break, like when Cat shows up with the knife in King's Landing.

There's obviously no way that Littlefinger could have known that Cat would have run into Tyrion on the way home and taken him captive. That was pure luck for him as well. His objective in telling her it was Tyrion's knife wasn't to lead to that exact outcome, but simply to ensure that the conflict between the two houses would soon turn physical.

Right -- that was the other coincidence that he simply could not have predicted.

He clearly did set up Ned at the brothel, though. Too convenient that Ned was about to leave the city and head home before being attacked by Jaime, which ensured he stayed there to die. I also think that it was definitely Littlefinger who convinced Joffrey to go back on his word and kill Ned. Varys hints that there was someone behind it, and given that we hear Varys and Illyrio talking about how things are moving too fast between the wolves and lions, it doesn't make sense for it to have been Varys.

Agree again.

 

[Jack Brickman]

The problem with the catspaw theory is that there is zero evidence Littlefinger would ever trust someone else with information that could so easily bring him down. He managed to survive (up until the end) all his schemes precisely because there was nobody who could ever truly betray him. He manipulated people into doing things that he wanted them to do, but always kept deniability.

It's also worth noting that Littlefinger couldn't possibly have predicted that Cat would be in the room with Bran and stop the killing, thus leading to the catspaw getting killed so that his knife could be discovered at all.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

It's also worth noting that Littlefinger couldn't possibly have predicted that Cat would be in the room with Bran and stop the killing, thus leading to the catspaw getting killed so that his knife could be discovered at all.

And even if he could have predicted that, he wouldn't have taken the chance that Catelyn herself might get killed. At that point, he was still in love with her.

 

[Rich]

And even if he could have predicted that, he wouldn't have taken the chance that Catelyn herself might get killed. At that point, he was still in love with her.

"You weren't supposed to be here" was the line the assassin gave.

It seems awfully convenient that Joffery used a Valyrian Steel Dagger of his own accord. Had it just been some random, run of the mill dagger, no one would have went asking whose dagger it was because it would have been basically untraceable.

I just assume that Littlefinger and Varys know essentially everything the story requires them to know, no matter how improbable.

Either way the Littlefinger theme song being played in season 1 long before it became clear it was his theme song is pretty damn cool.

 

[Jack Brickman]

"You weren't supposed to be here" was the line the assassin gave.

It seems awfully convenient that Joffery used a Valyrian Steel Dagger of his own accord. Had it just been some random, run of the mill dagger, no one would have went asking whose dagger it was because it would have been basically untraceable.

I just assume that Littlefinger and Varys know essentially everything the story requires them to know, no matter how improbable.

In the books, the assassin also says that it would be a mercy, and that Bran was dead already. These are words that we hear Jaime use when Joffrey was around and are told that Robert has used around the kids. Just seems like far too much of a coincidence.

Further evidence from the books is that the dagger actually belongs to Robert, which is why it was in Winterfell to begin with. Robert won it from Littlefinger in the same tournament where Littlefinger said that Tyrion won it from him. This would also explain why Joffrey had access to it, as it likely would have been with Robert's other weapons. I believe the book says they brought a whole cart of weapons.

There's also the line in the books that causes Tyrion to figure out that it was Joffrey. "I am no stranger to Valyrian steel."

During a Jaime chapter, we get the following quote that Robert said around the kids: "We kill our horses when they break a leg, and our dogs when they go blind, but we are too weak to give the same mercy to crippled children."

Now, the show may have retconned it, as I don't really recall how the show handled all of this stuff. I am just starting season three of my re-watch, so I'll get to it soon enough. But in the books, all signs point to Joffrey.

 

[Rich]

In the books, the assassin also says that it would be a mercy, and that Bran was dead already. These are words that we hear Jaime use when Joffrey was around and are told that Robert has used around the kids. Just seems like far too much of a coincidence.

Further evidence from the books is that the dagger actually belongs to Robert, which is why it was in Winterfell to begin with. Robert won it from Littlefinger in the same tournament where Littlefinger said that Tyrion won it from him. This would also explain why Joffrey had access to it, as it likely would have been with Robert's other weapons. I believe the book says they brought a whole cart of weapons.

There's also the line in the books that causes Tyrion to figure out that it was Joffrey. "I am no stranger to Valyrian steel."

During a Jaime chapter, we get the following quote that Robert said around the kids: "We kill our horses when they break a leg, and our dogs when they go blind, but we are too weak to give the same mercy to crippled children."

Now, the show may have retconned it, as I don't really recall how the show handled all of this stuff. I am just starting season three of my re-watch, so I'll get to it soon enough. But in the books, all signs point to Joffrey.

Well I'd say all signs except for the fact that it was Littlefinger's dagger, and he got it back, and he blamed someone he knew didn't do it. I mean..those are big signs.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Well I'd say all signs except for the fact that it was Littlefinger's dagger, and he got it back, and he blamed someone he knew didn't do it. I mean..those are big signs.

In the books, though, it's not Littlefinger's dagger. It was, but he lost it to Robert in a bet.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Well I'd say all signs except for the fact that it was Littlefinger's dagger, and he got it back, and he blamed someone he knew didn't do it. I mean..those are big signs.

It would be incredibly stupid for Littlefinger to use a dagger than he owned for an assassination attempt on Bran. Beyond stupid.

I think the show never stated the origin of the dagger. And as noted by @Jack Brickman , the books suggest that Robert was the owner of the dagger at the time it was used to kill Bran.

In any case, there is still the massive hurdle of Littlefinger not even being in Winterfell, and having no knowledge of Bran having fallen, when the assassination attempt was made. How do you explain that?

 

[Jack Brickman]

It would be incredibly stupid for Littlefinger to use a dagger than he owned for an assassination attempt on Bran. Beyond stupid.

I think the show never stated the origin of the dagger. And as noted by @Jack Brickman , the books suggest that Robert was the owner of the dagger at the time it was used to kill Bran.

In any case, there is still the massive hurdle of Littlefinger not even being in Winterfell, and having no knowledge of Bran having fallen, when the assassination attempt was made. How do you explain that?

Jaime flat out tells Cat that the dagger belonged to Robert, if I recall correctly. And he has absolutely zero reason to lie at this point after having confessed to Cat that he shoved Bran out the window because he saw Jaime and Cercei together. There's no incentive for him to protect Littlefinger either.

 

[Rich]

This is way off track. Littlefinger had a dagger, he lost it. He got it back. That very dagger was the dagger that the assassin used to try and kill Bran. He got it back and in the process lied about who he lost the dagger too.

Whether he hired the assassin or not wasn't the point. The point was the damn scene ends with his music playing after Catelyn arrests Tyrion because he's the reason it happened. They use music extremely well in this show.

 

[Jack Brickman]

While we're on the subject, it seems kind of strange that Tyrion never tried to get revenge on Littlefinger for telling Cat that tale about the knife. Especially considering it almost got him killed multiple times.

 

[Rich]

I don't care how many times I watch it the first 18 minutes of S6E10 are simply the best 18 minutes in television history. My god.

 

[Jack Brickman]

I don't care how many times I watch it the first 18 minutes of S6E10 are simply the best 18 minutes in television history. My god.

That where Cercei blows up the church?