Cleveland Guardians Offseason Discussion 2021-22

Montgo said:

You don’t see my POV? “Activity for the sake of activity” is working pretty well for TB, no? Their window of contention is going to last longer than the Tribe’s did.

I am not going to use hindsight to cherry-pick an example of what the Indians could have done differently. That’s not how it works.

It’s impossible to say the Indians could have traded for player X at any point in history. It’s simply a losing argument to get that specific given all the variables in play. That said, teams can address needs when motivated. To suggest there were no moves to make to better the big league club the last 3 years (2019 still being a contention year) is just not something I buy. Rather, the Indians weren’t motivated to make this kind of deal because they prefer making the other kind of deals more. And they have a hard time moving on from fringe players which prevents them from seeking actual upgrades

Instead, I’ll give you an example of what I would like to see this off season:

1) Trade for someone like I. Happ or L. Gurriel. If neither is available, find someone similar who is. Guys like this get dealt every off season. I’d even trade for 2 of them.
2) Trade Plesac to accomplish the above or for more prospect capital. He’s not long for the organization and i don’t see the point in delaying it.
3) If they move Plesac, trade for someone like John Means. Much like hitters leaving the Marlins have proven to be a trade opportunity, we have seen similar things with SP’s leaving behind Camden Yards. It’s time for a solid LHP in the Tribe’s rotation.
4) Stop with the Jake Bauers decision making process and move on from guys like Zimmers, Harold, and Mercado. Maybe they can keep 1, but enough overvaluing control at the cost of production.

I purposely do not mention specific prospects involved in these deals because that always kills the conversation. Someone always get hung up on their favorite prospect. It’s why folks once argued they wouldn’t trade B. Zimmer for Yelich. The Indians can acquire big league help without mortgaging the future. They have enough talent and depth to survive a few trades.

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Montgo said:

I can’t tell if you’re refuting or supporting my point.

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Derek said:

Nobody wants to keep all of our prospects.

It’s disingenuous to imply that to be the case.

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CATS44 said:

Montgo is correct. He doesn't need to offer trade ideas, as he is offering a generalized view of our situation, without getting into six pages of debate on specifics.

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I disagree that Tampa window of contention is longer than ours. As long as the pitching factory provides a stream of MLB pitchers, the Guardians will be contenders. The question is the quality of contention, which will be decided by the quality of the offense.

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The three small revenue orgs that are generally offered up as successful models to emulate are Tampa, Cleveland, and Oakland. But a closer look shows that every four or five years, two of those orgs take a break from contending and spend multiple years rebuilding. The only one that doesn't is Cleveland.

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Cleveland never has the best, most talent laden farm system, but we win the most games of those three.

But fans forget that, because they seemingly think that the pennant is won by the org with the highest rated farm system. Some of them should ask the Padres how that has worked for them.

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This years long debate about what to do with prospects reminds me of the story about the monkey, the hunter, and the peanuts...which BTW is true.

A hunter sits a jar full of peanuts in a jungle clearing, and waits. Soon, a monkey shows up and sticks his hand in the jar and tries to grab all the peanuts. But he refuses to let go, so he can't get his hand...or the peanuts...out of the jar. The hunter is then able to catch the monkey.

Had the monkey not been greedy...had he taken only two or three peanuts...he would have been safe. But he wanted them all.

Many of our fans want the FO to act like the monkey, and keep all the prospects, not just two or three. They don't want to let go....even though the team has been best when it HAS let go of many of its better prospects by trading them for quality MLB players.

Instead, fans want the FO to keep its hand in the jar, meaning that all those peanuts...prospects...never do us any good. To the contrary, many fans want the FO to acquire MORE peanuts, even though there is no more room in the jar.

But,wait. Its even worse than that. Some fans still don't want to let go of the stale peanuts that have been sitting in that jar for five or six years.

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Mott the Hoople said:

Looks like Carter Hawkins and James Harris of the G's is under consideration for Cubs GM.
(Maybe bimbo too!)

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CATS44 said:

Montgo is correct. He doesn't need to offer trade ideas, as he is offering a generalized view of our situation, without getting into six pages of debate on specifics.

***********

I disagree that Tampa window of contention is longer than ours. As long as the pitching factory provides a stream of MLB pitchers, the Guardians will be contenders. The question is the quality of contention, which will be decided by the quality of the offense.

**********

The three small revenue orgs that are generally offered up as successful models to emulate are Tampa, Cleveland, and Oakland. But a closer look shows that every four or five years, two of those orgs take a break from contending and spend multiple years rebuilding. The only one that doesn't is Cleveland.

*********

Cleveland never has the best, most talent laden farm system, but we win the most games of those three.

But fans forget that, because they seemingly think that the pennant is won by the org with the highest rated farm system. Some of them should ask the Padres how that has worked for them.

************

This years long debate about what to do with prospects reminds me of the story about the monkey, the hunter, and the peanuts...which BTW is true.

A hunter sits a jar full of peanuts in a jungle clearing, and waits. Soon, a monkey shows up and sticks his hand in the jar and tries to grab all the peanuts. But he refuses to let go, so he can't get his hand...or the peanuts...out of the jar. The hunter is then able to catch the monkey.

Had the monkey not been greedy...had he taken only two or three peanuts...he would have been safe. But he wanted them all.

Many of our fans want the FO to act like the monkey, and keep all the prospects, not just two or three. They don't want to let go....even though the team has been best when it HAS let go of many of its better prospects by trading them for quality MLB players.

Instead, fans want the FO to keep its hand in the jar, meaning that all those peanuts...prospects...never do us any good. To the contrary, many fans want the FO to acquire MORE peanuts, even though there is no more room in the jar.

But,wait. Its even worse than that. Some fans still don't want to let go of the stale peanuts that have been sitting in that jar for five or six years.

Click to expand...

CATS44 said:

Montgo is correct. He doesn't need to offer trade ideas, as he is offering a generalized view of our situation, without getting into six pages of debate on specifics.

***********

I disagree that Tampa window of contention is longer than ours. As long as the pitching factory provides a stream of MLB pitchers, the Guardians will be contenders. The question is the quality of contention, which will be decided by the quality of the offense.

**********

The three small revenue orgs that are generally offered up as successful models to emulate are Tampa, Cleveland, and Oakland. But a closer look shows that every four or five years, two of those orgs take a break from contending and spend multiple years rebuilding. The only one that doesn't is Cleveland.

*********

Cleveland never has the best, most talent laden farm system, but we win the most games of those three.

But fans forget that, because they seemingly think that the pennant is won by the org with the highest rated farm system. Some of them should ask the Padres how that has worked for them.

************

This years long debate about what to do with prospects reminds me of the story about the monkey, the hunter, and the peanuts...which BTW is true.

A hunter sits a jar full of peanuts in a jungle clearing, and waits. Soon, a monkey shows up and sticks his hand in the jar and tries to grab all the peanuts. But he refuses to let go, so he can't get his hand...or the peanuts...out of the jar. The hunter is then able to catch the monkey.

Had the monkey not been greedy...had he taken only two or three peanuts...he would have been safe. But he wanted them all.

Many of our fans want the FO to act like the monkey, and keep all the prospects, not just two or three. They don't want to let go....even though the team has been best when it HAS let go of many of its better prospects by trading them for quality MLB players.

Instead, fans want the FO to keep its hand in the jar, meaning that all those peanuts...prospects...never do us any good. To the contrary, many fans want the FO to acquire MORE peanuts, even though there is no more room in the jar.

But,wait. Its even worse than that. Some fans still don't want to let go of the stale peanuts that have been sitting in that jar for five or six years.

Click to expand...

CDAV45 said:

The bolded sentence is well said and spot on. It's the last piece to Cleveland's puzzle and it's enjoyable seeing how you good folks would like to see it addressed.

I think we're in a weird place in the short term. This team is on the verge of becoming a very competitive one, but I can see this FO being patient for 1 more season due to the emerging talent in the farm system. They could easily choose to cut ties with a number of 40 man occupants and start to get a look at guys like Jones, Kwan, Arias, Morris, and Gonzalez. Awhile back I listed 15 current 40 man spots that could go away without any of us losing sleep.

On the other hand, they have more than enough prospect capital to address a need or 3. It will be interesting to see what they do. Hell, they might do both.

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avs2000 said:

Package some of those guys we are possibly cutting ties with and Plesac for a young corner outfielder. We also just drafted 12 pitchers as well we got depth to trade

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CATS44 said:

Cleveland never has the best, most talent laden farm system, but we win the most games of those three.

But fans forget that, because they seemingly think that the pennant is won by the org with the highest rated farm system. Some of them should ask the Padres how that has worked for them.

Click to expand...