Cleveland Guardians Offseason Discussion 2021-22

[KluberSociety]

That "20 year old top prospect" could be the best prospect of the last 10 years. We have nothing close to an analog to that.

 

[Derek]

I would certainly have not be opposed to trading a few of those guys for a legit MLB player. Still would do it.

Obviously Bieber would have been unfortunate to move at any point, but he’s at the high end of the bar. There’s far more Bradley Zimmers of the prospect world than Shane Bieber’s.

To better answer your question though, I want the Indians to operate more like Tampa. That organization does an excellent job making trades in both directions and getting full value out of prospects and vets alike. While I fully acknowledge that TB has had a better system to work with, here’s a list of top prospects/young MLB players they’ve dealt just since the Indians traded Mejia for Hand:

Nick Solak
Nate Lowe
Jake Cronenworth
Matt Liberatore (top 100 prospect at the time)
Jesus Sanchez
Willy Adames
Joe Ryan

That’s a lot of controllable young talent for a team with the lowest payroll in baseball. Yet, they continue to churn out 90+ wins every year in the toughest division in MLB. Why? Because they are active in reshaping their roster every off season making trades in both directions. They don’t win every trade, not even close. But they get the right roster together almost every year.

Can you honestly see the current Tribe FO making the same decision to move on from W. Adames and promoting a 20 year old top prospect in June? Or making really any of these trades?

The Tribe FO is extremely conservative and deliberate in their process. It works over time, but its not great for reloading or whatever the hell they want to label this past season. If they have a notion to contend next year, they need to make a few trades.

The Rays are in the middle of their contention window, of course they’re wheeling and dealing.

Cleveland did the same thing from the time they called up Lindor in 2015 until they signaled the closing of their window with the Bauer trade in 2019.

 

[Steve_424]

Amed is not a bad SS, offensively or defensively. He is not elite, either. He is average. But that isn't his problem. His problem is that he isn't Francisco Lindor.

Just like Peralta's problem was that he wasn't Omar.

His -10 DRS (worst among Cleveland regulars) and the eye test both disagree - he's a bad defensive SS.

 

[Montgo]

The Rays are in the middle of their contention window, of course they’re wheeling and dealing.

Cleveland did the same thing from the time they called up Lindor in 2015 until they signaled the closing of their window with the Bauer trade in 2019.

The Indians never were as active as Tampa is at any point in their contention window.

 

[Derek]

The Indians never were as active as Tampa is at any point in their contention window.

Sounds like you just want activity for the sake of it.

If I’m wrong, can you at least give me a hypothetical trade you wish you had seen?

I’m really struggling to see your POV on this.

 

[Montgo]

That "20 year old top prospect" could be the best prospect of the last 10 years. We have nothing close to an analog to that.

You missed the point. The Indians would never move on a from a guy like Adames with prospect pedigree and years of control. It’s not how they operate. They keep trotting out lesser players every year because they can’t let go.

 

[Steve_424]

The Indians never were as active as Tampa is at any point in their contention window.

2016 - Added Napoli, Davis before the season, Miller at the deadline (and tried for Lucroy)
2017 - Added Encarnacion before the season, Bruce at the deadline
2018 - Added Donaldson at the deadline

 

[CATS44]

When teams go into full blown rebuild, they very gradually develop their young players to the point that they then acquire multiple proven MLB players to turn a promising young roster into a contending roster.

We watched Chicago do this, and we will watch Detroit do it this winter.

We did not go into full rebuild. Instead, we turned our veteran pitchers and Lindor into a promising young roster.

We are at the same point as Chicago was a few years ago and as Detroit is now, only we are younger and better...and we haven't burnt up our prospects to get here. Those teams have money to spend, which we don't have. But we have plenty of prospect capital.

If we expect that Detroit is going to go out and spend assets (money), why should we not expect this FO to spend assets (prospects)?

I dont understand the wish that we keep collecting and stashing prospects while retooling for another year, while Joses time with us runs out....and Bieber, too.

This FO is risk averse. But the fans are even more so.

 

[Gson]

His -10 DRS (worst among Cleveland regulars) and the eye test both disagree - he's a bad defensive SS.

He has to improve to be a bad defensive shortstop.. but he hits well.. hits very well, indeed..

 

[Montgo]

Sounds like you just want activity for the sake of it.

If I’m wrong, can you at least give me a hypothetical trade you wish you had seen?

I’m really struggling to see your POV on this.

You don’t see my POV? “Activity for the sake of activity” is working pretty well for TB, no? Their window of contention is going to last longer than the Tribe’s did.

I am not going to use hindsight to cherry-pick an example of what the Indians could have done differently. That’s not how it works.

It’s impossible to say the Indians could have traded for player X at any point in history. It’s simply a losing argument to get that specific given all the variables in play. That said, teams can address needs when motivated. To suggest there were no moves to make to better the big league club the last 3 years (2019 still being a contention year) is just not something I buy. Rather, the Indians weren’t motivated to make this kind of deal because they prefer making the other kind of deals more. And they have a hard time moving on from fringe players which prevents them from seeking actual upgrades

Instead, I’ll give you an example of what I would like to see this off season:

1) Trade for someone like I. Happ or L. Gurriel. If neither is available, find someone similar who is. Guys like this get dealt every off season. I’d even trade for 2 of them.
2) Trade Plesac to accomplish the above or for more prospect capital. He’s not long for the organization and i don’t see the point in delaying it.
3) If they move Plesac, trade for someone like John Means. Much like hitters leaving the Marlins have proven to be a trade opportunity, we have seen similar things with SP’s leaving behind Camden Yards. It’s time for a solid LHP in the Tribe’s rotation.
4) Stop with the Jake Bauers decision making process and move on from guys like Zimmers, Harold, and Mercado. Maybe they can keep 1, but enough overvaluing control at the cost of production.

I purposely do not mention specific prospects involved in these deals because that always kills the conversation. Someone always get hung up on their favorite prospect. It’s why folks once argued they wouldn’t trade B. Zimmer for Yelich. The Indians can acquire big league help without mortgaging the future. They have enough talent and depth to survive a few trades.

 

[Montgo]

2016 - Added Napoli, Davis before the season, Miller at the deadline (and tried for Lucroy)
2017 - Added Encarnacion before the season, Bruce at the deadline
2018 - Added Donaldson at the deadline

I can’t tell if you’re refuting or supporting my point.

 

[Montgo]

When teams go into full blown rebuild, they very gradually develop their young players to the point that they then acquire multiple proven MLB players to turn a promising young roster into a contending roster.

We watched Chicago do this, and we will watch Detroit do it this winter.

We did not go into full rebuild. Instead, we turned our veteran pitchers and Lindor into a promising young roster.

We are at the same point as Chicago was a few years ago and as Detroit is now, only we are younger and better...and we haven't burnt up our prospects to get here. Those teams have money to spend, which we don't have. But we have plenty of prospect capital.

If we expect that Detroit is going to go out and spend assets (money), why should we not expect this FO to spend assets (prospects)?

I dont understand the wish that we keep collecting and stashing prospects while retooling for another year, while Joses time with us runs out....and Bieber, too.

This FO is risk averse. But the fans are even more so.

I’ve spent way too much time on this board today discussing my point of view. Your last line here perfectly illustrates the futility of my efforts.

 

[Criznit]

His -10 DRS (worst among Cleveland regulars) and the eye test both disagree - he's a bad defensive SS.

He is kind of like Nicolas Cage in this regard. He isn't necessarily good, but does that automatically make him bad?

 

[Steve_424]

I can’t tell if you’re refuting or supporting my point.

If you're not sure I can't help further.

 

[CDAV45]

You don’t see my POV? “Activity for the sake of activity” is working pretty well for TB, no? Their window of contention is going to last longer than the Tribe’s did.

I am not going to use hindsight to cherry-pick an example of what the Indians could have done differently. That’s not how it works.

It’s impossible to say the Indians could have traded for player X at any point in history. It’s simply a losing argument to get that specific given all the variables in play. That said, teams can address needs when motivated. To suggest there were no moves to make to better the big league club the last 3 years (2019 still being a contention year) is just not something I buy. Rather, the Indians weren’t motivated to make this kind of deal because they prefer making the other kind of deals more. And they have a hard time moving on from fringe players which prevents them from seeking actual upgrades

Instead, I’ll give you an example of what I would like to see this off season:

1) Trade for someone like I. Happ or L. Gurriel. If neither is available, find someone similar who is. Guys like this get dealt every off season. I’d even trade for 2 of them.
2) Trade Plesac to accomplish the above or for more prospect capital. He’s not long for the organization and i don’t see the point in delaying it.
3) If they move Plesac, trade for someone like John Means. Much like hitters leaving the Marlins have proven to be a trade opportunity, we have seen similar things with SP’s leaving behind Camden Yards. It’s time for a solid LHP in the Tribe’s rotation.
4) Stop with the Jake Bauers decision making process and move on from guys like Zimmers, Harold, and Mercado. Maybe they can keep 1, but enough overvaluing control at the cost of production.

I purposely do not mention specific prospects involved in these deals because that always kills the conversation. Someone always get hung up on their favorite prospect. It’s why folks once argued they wouldn’t trade B. Zimmer for Yelich. The Indians can acquire big league help without mortgaging the future. They have enough talent and depth to survive a few trades.

Guilty as charged! They seemed so very similar when Zimmer first came up and was healthy. Boy did the tables turn.

Thing is, I'd guess there are numerous examples the other way as well. Point being........I haven't a goddamn clue.