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Early 22 GM Thread! (Trade Ideas here)

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Gson said:
staying with the smaller deals... this is a smallish deal called the Double Nickel 5.5 in, 5.5 out for all three teams..

Dbax get: Ernie Clement SS, Josh Wolf P & Yu Chang Util.
Phillies get: David Peralta OF & Luke Weaver P
Guardians get: Rafael Marchan C & Micky Moniak OF

While a smallish deal.. an effective deal.. the original author, a DBax fan, had no Chang or Moniak, but was otherwise as presented.. This is the kind of "under the radar deal" that matters to small market teams..

Thoughts?..
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And that helps us how? Chang and Clement are better rated as hitters and Clement can in the OF... Marchan isn't any better than Sanchez and Moniak doesn't have much potential in my mind. We lose on that deal...
 
sportscoach said:
You are twisting my words as well :p

You did kind of sound like Straw is replaceable rather than a main piece, but you also are one that refuses to put anyone outside of a certain profile in the corners so if Kwan and Palacios both do well, you are the one you kind of says you cannot keep all three of those guys in the OF.

Now when it comes to Plesac, I actually wasn't referring to you, but some people are ready to make trades to make them it feels like lol
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Totally not true Coach. I even mentioned the other day that I actually agree with putting Kwan, Palacios and/or Rosario in the corners if better offensive players aren't obtained. Nowhere did I mention Straw isn't a main piece. All I'm saying is that he's not a special player offensively and that's stating the obvious. If you're denying that reality then it's on you. I did ask the question what would happen if Kwan is outperforming Straw and we've addressed the corner OF situations. The kid can hit and he can play defense. It's not an unusual question and teams face this scenario every year. Kwan or a hitter like him is not who they're looking to put in the corner OF positions, but that's who might end up there.

As far as trading Plesac goes, it's not unreasonable to think or even suggest that he and/or Civale could/should be dealt. There is a lot of depth and clearly there are needs. You can argue the semantics of what a trade might look like, but there's a history of this team trading SP when there are prospects ready. All of Reyes, Miller, Hedges, and Quantrill were returns from a SP being dealt.
 
CDAV45 said:
Totally not true Coach. I even mentioned the other day that I actually agree with putting Kwan, Palacios and/or Rosario in the corners if better offensive players aren't obtained. Nowhere did I mention Straw isn't a main piece. All I'm saying is that he's not a special player offensively and that's stating the obvious. If you're denying that reality then it's on you. I did ask the question what would happen if Kwan is outperforming Straw and we've addressed the corner OF situations. The kid can hit and he can play defense. It's not an unusual question and teams face this scenario every year. Kwan or a hitter like him is not who they're looking to put in the corner OF positions, but that's who might end up there.

As far as trading Plesac goes, it's not unreasonable to think or even suggest that he and/or Civale could/should be dealt. There is a lot of depth and clearly there are needs. You can argue the semantics of what a trade might look like, but there's a history of this team trading SP when there are prospects ready. All of Reyes, Miller, Hedges, and Quantrill were returns from a SP being dealt.
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Straw is actually a top 5 defensive CF likely in baseball right now and even if he can hit at league average, he will put up 3+ WAR pretty easily. Kwan's athleticism will limit where he can get as a CF. He won't get above 3 WAR even with his defense. At least that's the way I feel... Kwan I like, but I don't ever see anything above 2ish for his WAR.

No Straw isn't special offensively but at the same time he is more of a weapon than you believe as well. I have a hunch that .285/.362/.377 is something he can do for a full season plus adding in his 30+ steals, he will be effective for this roster. I think he is a main piece and will be special for the next few years. I wouldn't even be surprised to see an extension come his way...

Plesac could be dealt but it would have to be an overpay which would mean an MLB bat, one more bat close to MLB and likely two more prospects...

So how about Plesac for Guirrel Jr, Kevin Smith and McGuire (plus a low prospect) for Plesac... plus doing a move for Marte or Laureano moving a few prospects to open roster spots... I think we are in business! What do you think about something like that?
 
sportscoach said:
Straw is actually a top 5 defensive CF likely in baseball right now and even if he can hit at league average, he will put up 3+ WAR pretty easily. Kwan's athleticism will limit where he can get as a CF. He won't get above 3 WAR even with his defense. At least that's the way I feel... Kwan I like, but I don't ever see anything above 2ish for his WAR.

No Straw isn't special offensively but at the same time he is more of a weapon than you believe as well. I have a hunch that .285/.362/.377 is something he can do for a full season plus adding in his 30+ steals, he will be effective for this roster. I think he is a main piece and will be special for the next few years. I wouldn't even be surprised to see an extension come his way...

Plesac could be dealt but it would have to be an overpay which would mean an MLB bat, one more bat close to MLB and likely two more prospects...

So how about Plesac for Guirrel Jr, Kevin Smith and McGuire (plus a low prospect) for Plesac... plus doing a move for Marte or Laureano moving a few prospects to open roster spots... I think we are in business! What do you think about something like that?
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Can you find the metrics to support your claim that he is a top 5 defensive CFer? He's been a league average hitter for exactly 1/2 of a season. Prior to that he was below average, but we'll see. Again, his game is getting on base and using his speed. Unless he dramatically turns the corner he offers little else with the bat. Thing is, that's fine with me because that's what this lineup needs him to do. He's not a run producer, he uses his legs to score them.

Respectfully, I think you and I share a totally different idea concerning what type of hitter should be playing the corner OF. There's no need to rehash that.

I want nothing to do with those 3 from Toronto. If they want to deal with us and get a quality SP then it starts with Hernandez. If they want to talk about sending Jansen and someone like Hogland then I'd consider it. Other than that they can keep their spare parts.
 
CDAV45 said:
Can you find the metrics to support your claim that he is a top 5 defensive CFer? He's been a league average hitter for exactly 1/2 of a season. Prior to that he was below average, but we'll see. Again, his game is getting on base and using his speed. Unless he dramatically turns the corner he offers little else with the bat. Thing is, that's fine with me because that's what this lineup needs him to do. He's not a run producer, he uses his legs to score them.

Respectfully, I think you and I share a totally different idea concerning what type of hitter should be playing the corner OF. There's no need to rehash that.

I want nothing to do with those 3 from Toronto. If they want to deal with us and get a quality SP then it starts with Hernandez. If they want to talk about sending Jansen and someone like Hogland then I'd consider it. Other than that they can keep their spare parts.
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Guirrel Jr is a solid LF and he has been playing 1B as well... I think he would be a good pick up. I am not sure why he would be an issue.. We need another at least defensive C and McGuire fits that plus he is pre-arb I believe so he would be a backup for Lavastida in 23... Smith is a wild card like a lot of our prospects but he had actually a great 21 at AAA and he has shown he is at least average at most positions...

Also we aren't going to win with one trade, hence why we make two deals... one dealing for Laureano and one Plesac for Guirrel, McGuire, Smith plus another prospect.

I dont see why it's so bad at the end of the day lol
 
Trading Plesac for a bat is merely spinning wheels, unless the bat is Reynoldsesque...which ain't happening. Trading Plesac makes the pitching worse, and the team is built around the rotation and Clase.

Morgan isn't an answer, just as Plutko was never an answer, although some posters insisted he was.

A rebuilding team looks to its SP prospects as future possibilities. A contender looks to its SP prospects as depth, not cornerstones. We are not a rebuilding team.

The last rotation piece we traded that brought instant equal return was Sutcliffe in 1984, when we got two legit MLB outfielders in return. I can't think of the last non rental rotation piece we traded that didn't bring MLB ready pitching in return.
 
sportscoach said:
And that helps us how? Chang and Clement are better rated as hitters and Clement can in the OF... Marchan isn't any better than Sanchez and Moniak doesn't have much potential in my mind. We lose on that deal...
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Disagree.. Moniak is a former 1-1.. there is talent there..but Phillies aren't getting it out.. Marchan PLAYS CATCHER.. The Guardians have about sixteen middle infielders who can do whatever Chang and Clement can do.. it's simple math..

Prospects Live Scouting report on Rafael Marchan: https://www.prospectslive.com/scoutingreports/rafael-marchan

Of particular note.. when you see him.. this little guy is terrier.. fights for everything he's asked to do.. and delivers.. He has a bat that profiles similar to Francisco Mejia, but an attitude that is all about the fight in the dog.. In short.. he's, at the very least an excellent back up receiver. At most, he's the left handed platoon starting for a two man catching corp.. The prospectslive scouting report is pretty good..

This kid helps the Club from the outset of 2022. and onward.. NOT HELPING THE CLUB?.. pppfffffft!..

Marchan represents something EVERY major league club relishes..a team leader..
 
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sportscoach said:
Guirrel Jr is a solid LF and he has been playing 1B as well... I think he would be a good pick up. I am not sure why he would be an issue.. We need another at least defensive C and McGuire fits that plus he is pre-arb I believe so he would be a backup for Lavastida in 23... Smith is a wild card like a lot of our prospects but he had actually a great 21 at AAA and he has shown he is at least average at most positions...

Also we aren't going to win with one trade, hence why we make two deals... one dealing for Laureano and one Plesac for Guirrel, McGuire, Smith plus another prospect.

I dont see why it's so bad at the end of the day lol
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You have every right to believe that Gurriel would be a good addition. He's not good defensively and he's just ok offensively. I'd rather see Kwan in LF. We have 2 defensive C, we don't need a 3rd. If you want to target a C from Toronto then look towards Jansen. I'd rather target Espinal than Smith, but we need neither. You want to take on a wildcard then look towards guys like Yepez and Vientos. If guys like those hit the ground running then we're talking about difference making bats. Me personally, I'd be very aggressive with the Nationals regarding Thomas, but they might politely tell us to pack sand.

Not big on Laureano in a corner spot either, but that's just me.

We're in a position to trade a SP. There are a couple of quality arms with high upsides that are pretty much ready. Plesac and Civale have good value. If Chernoff moves one of them then clearly it will be for immediate help. It won't be a salary dump, and it won't be for prospects years away. He won't deal any of Bieber, McKenzie, or Quantrill. Having a young SP like Morris in the 5 spot isn't going to hurt a damn thing. In fact, I believe he could outpitch either of Plesac or Civale right now. The means by which an offer can be made is multifaceted. You want a SP we got a couple. You want a MIF we got a couple of those too. You want some good prospects, we have a shit ton of those. Think big here coach. That or prepare to see what the internal parts can do.
 
Gson said:
Disagree.. Moniak is a former 1-1.. there is talent there..but Phillies aren't getting it out.. Marchan PLAYS CATCHER.. The Guardians have about sixteen middle infielders who can do whatever Chang and Clement can do.. it's simple math..

Prospects Live Scouting report on Rafael Marchan: https://www.prospectslive.com/scoutingreports/rafael-marchan

Of particular note.. when you see him.. this little guy is terrier.. fights for everything he's asked to do.. and delivers.. He has a bat that profiles similar to Francisco Mejia, but an attitude that is all about the fight in the dog.. In short.. he's, at the very least an excellent back up receiver. At most, he's the left handed platoon starting for a two man catching corp.. The prospectslive scouting report is pretty good..

This kid helps the Club from the outset of 2022. and onward.. NOT HELPING THE CLUB?.. pppfffffft!..

Marchan represents something EVERY major league club relishes..a team leader..
Click to expand...

Marchan cannot hit... he hasn't hit a .700 OPS since low A and that was at .705... I would like another catcher so I dont mind getting him, but giving up Clement, Wolf and Chang for a catcher who cannot hit and an OF who honestly hasn't proven anything in the minors. I get Moniak was a top 100 prospect, but his numbers honestly aren't any good. Tell me what Moniak does better than the OF candidates we have?
 
CDAV45 said:
You have every right to believe that Gurriel would be a good addition. He's not good defensively and he's just ok offensively. I'd rather see Kwan in LF. We have 2 defensive C, we don't need a 3rd. If you want to target a C from Toronto then look towards Jansen. I'd rather target Espinal than Smith, but we need neither. You want to take on a wildcard then look towards guys like Yepez and Vientos. If guys like those hit the ground running then we're talking about difference making bats. Me personally, I'd be very aggressive with the Nationals regarding Thomas, but they might politely tell us to pack sand.

Not big on Laureano in a corner spot either, but that's just me.

We're in a position to trade a SP. There are a couple of quality arms with high upsides that are pretty much ready. Plesac and Civale have good value. If Chernoff moves one of them then clearly it will be for immediate help. It won't be a salary dump, and it won't be for prospects years away. He won't deal any of Bieber, McKenzie, or Quantrill. Having a young SP like Morris in the 5 spot isn't going to hurt a damn thing. In fact, I believe he could outpitch either of Plesac or Civale right now. The means by which an offer can be made is multifaceted. You want a SP we got a couple. You want a MIF we got a couple of those too. You want some good prospects, we have a shit ton of those. Think big here coach. That or prepare to see what the internal parts can do.
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Guirrel Jr is a 2-3 WAR player and if you look at his defense, he actually had positive marks in LF in 21. Gotta remember he was an INF not an OF when he got signed...Guirrel's best years will be the next few seasons also is what I believe... McGuire is essentially a long term backup in a sense until Lavastida and Naylor are both pro ready to be our duo and I think Smith turned the corner in 21... He can hit 20+ HRs, steal 20+ bags while playing an average defense at 2B, SS, 3B and has been tried at 1B and LF... my instincts say to go get him which is why I am adding him to deals. I think he is a ROY in 22... I wouldn't even be afraid to throw him out in RF in spring.

Also I don't think the Blue Jays will give up Hernandez without us giving up Plesac plus some while we should be able to get Guirrel, McGuire and a couple prospects (I want Smith) for Plesac. Then we should go get Laureano for RF (with maybe Bassitt added in to replace Plesac) now our OF is Guirrel, Straw, Laureano with Zimmer as our 4th guy...

I am not as high on Laureano as someone like @CATS44 but years of team control, who is a plus CF with a plus arm so should translate to a plus RF and can hit 20 HRs with an OPS+ of 110 or more...

This is why I wish we could face off running a team each on OOTP since we have way different ways of running a roster lol
 
sportscoach said:
Guirrel Jr is a 2-3 WAR player and if you look at his defense, he actually had positive marks in LF in 21. Gotta remember he was an INF not an OF when he got signed...Guirrel's best years will be the next few seasons also is what I believe... McGuire is essentially a long term backup in a sense until Lavastida and Naylor are both pro ready to be our duo and I think Smith turned the corner in 21... He can hit 20+ HRs, steal 20+ bags while playing an average defense at 2B, SS, 3B and has been tried at 1B and LF... my instincts say to go get him which is why I am adding him to deals. I think he is a ROY in 22... I wouldn't even be afraid to throw him out in RF in spring.

Also I don't think the Blue Jays will give up Hernandez without us giving up Plesac plus some while we should be able to get Guirrel, McGuire and a couple prospects (I want Smith) for Plesac. Then we should go get Laureano for RF (with maybe Bassitt added in to replace Plesac) now our OF is Guirrel, Straw, Laureano with Zimmer as our 4th guy...

I am not as high on Laureano as someone like @CATS44 but years of team control, who is a plus CF with a plus arm so should translate to a plus RF and can hit 20 HRs with an OPS+ of 110 or more...

This is why I wish we could face off running a team each on OOTP since we have way different ways of running a roster lol
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Lourdes Gurriel Jr. would be a solid acquisition and a fine addition to any outfield.. He can hit.. and is a better defender in the OF than he's given credit for.. His fringy arm is the only tool that holds him back from being a true five tool player..

McGuire is a defense first catcher.. and will always be a back up.. Essentially, he's a younger, left-handed version of Bebo.. The Guardians could do worse in a back up.. like Kirk..

Kevin Smith v Otto Lopez.. as the "prospect" added to the deal... Both are comparable from several perspectives:

ML readiness, both having debuts late in 2021..
Versatile Defensive Capability: 2B/3B/SS/OF
Both Right Handed Hitters

Smith is much less consistent with the lumber but vastly more powerful.. either guy would be worth consideration. As far as the cost for this acquisition.. Plesac's value and perhaps a deep prospect should cover it..

Adding Laureano will be MUCH more expensive.. much more indeed..
 
We have a lot of young pitching prospects. Not one of them is likely to provide what any of our present rotation pieces will, and probably not close.

We have a depth of pitching prospects, but a dearth of MLB SPs.

Trade from the depth, not from the dearth.

********

Funny that some folks like Moniak. He was a miserable minor leaguer, and outside of his original draft position, never looked at as a high end prospect.

Think Erik Gonzalez with a bat.

******

I wouldn't mind having Jansen and Gurriel, esp Jansen. Gurriel is average, but average is an upgrade over what we have. He doesn't add much OBP or power, but he is affordable.

But no way would I trade a front line pitcher for them, and the Jays aren't looking for prospects.

The Jays just dont look like a good trade partner for us.
 
Gson said:
Lourdes Gurriel Jr. would be a solid acquisition and a fine addition to any outfield.. He can hit.. and is a better defender in the OF than he's given credit for.. His fringy arm is the only tool that holds him back from being a true five tool player..

McGuire is a defense first catcher.. and will always be a back up.. Essentially, he's a younger, left-handed version of Bebo.. The Guardians could do worse in a back up.. like Kirk..

Kevin Smith v Otto Lopez.. as the "prospect" added to the deal... Both are comparable from several perspectives:

ML readiness, both having debuts late in 2021..
Versatile Defensive Capability: 2B/3B/SS/OF
Both Right Handed Hitters

Smith is much less consistent with the lumber but vastly more powerful.. either guy would be worth consideration. As far as the cost for this acquisition.. Plesac's value and perhaps a deep prospect should cover it..

Adding Laureano will be MUCH more expensive.. much more indeed..
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With our roster, we do lack MLB ready guys with power hence why I am leaning towards Smith over Lopez, but both make sense. On paper Smith is the better INF while Lopez is the better OF. I mean his short time in CF, his numbers are in between Kwans and Straw's... On our roster I would put Smith to RF.

I am actually thinking with Laureano we create space on the 40 man to add the other guys essentially and get our RF long term ya know? Plus both guys we have more than two years of control left, so we can move them when we feel other guys are ready.

Two trades I have up on BTV (baseball trade values) are...

CLE gets Laureano + Bassitt for Espino, Jones, Gavin Williams, Angel Martinez and Jose Tena

Then...

CLE gets Guirrel, C McGuire, INF/OF Kevin Smith, RHP Chad Dallas for Plesac and RHP Lenny Torres.

Then I would cut/trade Mercado for whatever I could get for him... try to extend Bassitt for 1-2 more seasons after 22 (he's an Ohio Native after all)... Then a small swap of INF Ernie Clement for LHP Tyler Gilbert to add another arm... Then I think I need to make a cut here, so whichever position player is rated their worst...
 
CATS44 said:
We have a lot of young pitching prospects. Not one of them is likely to provide what any of our present rotation pieces will, and probably not close.

We have a depth of pitching prospects, but a dearth of MLB SPs.

Trade from the depth, not from the dearth.

********

Funny that some folks like Moniak. He was a miserable minor leaguer, and outside of his original draft position, never looked at as a high end prospect.

Think Erik Gonzalez with a bat.

******

I wouldn't mind having Jansen and Gurriel, esp Jansen. Gurriel is average, but average is an upgrade over what we have. He doesn't add much OBP or power, but he is affordable.

But no way would I trade a front line pitcher for them, and the Jays aren't looking for prospects.

The Jays just dont look like a good trade partner for us.
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I am thinking we would get Bassitt with Laureano while Plesac goes elsewhere for another bat hence the Guirrel move. I also like Kevin Smith from them as well...
 
If we acquire a MLB SP, we can trade one.

But as we know, just about every time this org has traded a SP, it has gotten an MLB ready SP in return. And it has never traded an established SP with four years of control left, so the return would have to be much higher in terms of MLB talent than anything we have seen.

Plesac in his present contract situation is worth more in trade than any SP this FO has ever traded...by a wide margin.

Most of the trade targets suggested for Plesac are way too low.
 
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