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Early 22 GM Thread! (Trade Ideas here)

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CDAV45 said:
Who's hating on Morgan? Some of you guys need to sharpen your comprehension skills. There's no hate when someone views him as a #5 because that's exactly what he is. Morgan is nothing but insurance/depth for this organization. "Almost a 3rd starter" is laughable unless it's for a non-competitive team with no SP depth. FFS if he's "almost a 3rd starter" then lets deal him for a good corner OF bat. Think there would be any takers? That's rhetorical because everyone here knows it wouldn't happen unless it's a big contract that a team is looking to unload.

I'll wait to see if "Morgan is a better Tomlin". If he is it's marginal at best which still makes him a #5.
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Well from your posts and some others it really did sound like Morgan is nothing more than a warm body that can pitch some...

Morgan has one of the best changeups in the game right now and his fastball-changeup combo actually is very good. If he can find another pitch that plays off well from those two, he is actually going to make himself a legit SP on any team. His slider is his next pitch and honestly it hasn't put up good numbers.

Kluber wasn't really that great until he changed his pitches around, which he did after he got to Cleveland.. My point being if Morgan can find another pitch to mix properly with what he does well, it's very possible he goes from a legit #5 to something greater. No, he will never be an Ace, but he can become greater than a number 5.
 
CDAV45 said:
Who's hating on Morgan? Some of you guys need to sharpen your comprehension skills. There's no hate when someone views him as a #5 because that's exactly what he is. Morgan is nothing but insurance/depth for this organization. "Almost a 3rd starter" is laughable unless it's for a non-competitive team with no SP depth. FFS if he's "almost a 3rd starter" then lets deal him for a good corner OF bat. Think there would be any takers? That's rhetorical because everyone here knows it wouldn't happen unless it's a big contract that a team is looking to unload.

I'll wait to see if "Morgan is a better Tomlin". If he is it's marginal at best which still makes him a #5.

Edited to say that I like the kid and I find myself rooting for him to succeed, but the talent is limited. He's the underdog everyone loves.
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You're hedging your bet here.

You say he's a 5th SP, but at the same time are not saying saying that you don't want him as our 5th SP (insurance/depth). What is it? Are you cool with him in our rotation going into the season, yes or no?

To me, he's a legit ML 5th SP and I like him for that role better than Hentges or L. S. Allen. And again, he's far from a finished product, especially considering he barely pitched at AAA. You make it sound like he's a 30yo journeyman, Morgan's 25 and keeps improving
 
In re Morgan:

Ask yourself this...

Looking at a possible 2024 rotation with a list that includes our present rotation plus:

Morris
Pilkington
Battenfield
Myers
Both Allens
Espino
Torres
Hankins
Vargas
Morgan

Thats 16 SPs, the oldest of which will be 30 yrs old, where do you put Morgan on that list?

Some will be traded. Some will get hurt. Some will fail. But IMO, if Morgan is top five (in our 2024 rotation), the pitching factory will have been a massive failure.

In other words, list today your top 16 SP prospects, including the present rotation, none of which are old. Morgan isn't in my top ten.

I love the Little Cowboy...one of my all time fav Tribesmen...but have to be honest. He has pitched 12 years with a total WAR of 6.8. If Morgans upside is Tomlin and he is a regular part of our rotation, we are not talking about much. Morgan may have a superb change up, but he doesn't have the control and command that Tomlin did. And while Tomlin was never really a groundball pitcher, he wasn't the extreme fly ball pitcher like Morgan.

There is more Plutko than Tomlin in Morgan.
 
Okay now...

Plesac for Heliot Ramos and Patrick Bailey...too ridiculous to discuss. A solid MLB SP with four years of control for two prospects that aren't any better than what we have now. (Valera, Naylor, and Lavastida)

Oh hell no, as my one daughter likes to say.

*************

Hays is one of those toolsy can't miss prospects that can't stay healthy, and is merely good...lots of pop from the right side that would look good in our outfield, but not so good in continual rehab.

I wouldn't mind acquiring him, but not for Jones and Battenfield. Maybe just Jones.

Why would we have interest in Baumler, who after TJ surgery is at least four years away? As far as I can tell, he has thrown 1 IP in the last three years.

**********

BTV has no place in reality. According to it, we can trade Arias for Carson Kelly.

And we can then trade Jones and B Naylor for McNeil and JD Davis.

Where do I sign up?
 
Just for fun, lets say that BTV is accurate, and we could pull off both those trades.

Where would we stand?

Our rotation and pitching depth remains intact for at least three years.

Our catching situation...Kelly for three years, Hedges for one, and Lavastida with at least another year to develope.

Franmil, McNeil, and Davis for three years.

Jose and Amed for two years.

Everybody else for at least four years.

Left field is covered with McNeil. RF is covered by Davis, unless one of the youngsters breaks thru immediately. Davis is the back up plan for Bradley, or ends up as a RH platoon for both RF and 1B.

In terms of offensive production, we've added a total of 100 average wRC+ at the two corner OF spots and catcher. Via Steamer projections, we add about 6 fWAR per 1800 PAs over what we got out of those three positions last year.

In terms of depth chart projections, our offensive fWAR would be slightly ahead of Chicagos.
 
CATS44 said:
Okay now...

Plesac for Heliot Ramos and Patrick Bailey...too ridiculous to discuss. A solid MLB SP with four years of control for two prospects that aren't any better than what we have now. (Valera, Naylor, and Lavastida)

Oh hell no, as my one daughter likes to say.

*************

Hays is one of those toolsy can't miss prospects that can't stay healthy, and is merely good...lots of pop from the right side that would look good in our outfield, but not so good in continual rehab.

I wouldn't mind acquiring him, but not for Jones and Battenfield. Maybe just Jones.

Why would we have interest in Baumler, who after TJ surgery is at least four years away? As far as I can tell, he has thrown 1 IP in the last three years.

**********

BTV has no place in reality. According to it, we can trade Arias for Carson Kelly.

And we can then trade Jones and B Naylor for McNeil and JD Davis.

Where do I sign up?
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Reason why we got Baumler back was cause Orioles want more than just Jones I am sure back for Hays... Since I likely had to give up a Battenfield, I figured why not get a young pitcher who had good command before Tommy John who doesn't need protected anytime soon.

So essentially we got a player we need now, aka Hays, Orioles fill in his spot plus get a possible rotation guy while the Guardians get back a guy who is very young and can be molded through the Guardians farm system after Tommy John. This is likely towards the best case scenario we can get for Hays... It may not be worth it, but it's about I think on paper the best offer for both teams.
 
I get where you are coming from, coach.

But I really like Battenfield....and trading him in a package would take a real difference maker in return....IMO.

I dont think Hays applies as a real difference maker, because of his health history.
 
BimboColesHair said:
50/50 Espino starts in AA.

Some of that 50 is things he doesn't control that has more to do with other players.
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yes.. a numbers game may create a situation where he may be pushed down to A+ to start the season..wouldn't be the worst idea...
 
CATS44 said:
Just for fun, lets say that BTV is accurate, and we could pull off both those trades.

Where would we stand?

Our rotation and pitching depth remains intact for at least three years.

Our catching situation...Kelly for three years, Hedges for one, and Lavastida with at least another year to develope.

Franmil, McNeil, and Davis for three years.

Jose and Amed for two years.

Everybody else for at least four years.

Left field is covered with McNeil. RF is covered by Davis, unless one of the youngsters breaks thru immediately. Davis is the back up plan for Bradley, or ends up as a RH platoon for both RF and 1B.

In terms of offensive production, we've added a total of 100 average wRC+ at the two corner OF spots and catcher. Via Steamer projections, we add about 6 fWAR per 1800 PAs over what we got out of those three positions last year.

In terms of depth chart projections, our offensive fWAR would be slightly ahead of Chicagos.
Click to expand...

The issue is the validity of the proposal(s) not the valuation of the players. That Giants offer is fair value but doesn’t meet what the Guardians would need in moving Plesac. Find a catcher and OF that would make the 26-man roster then I’m sure the FO would entertain it now. Heck, that offer if the circumstances were different might get a look.

Striking your thumb with a hammer doesn’t make the hammer a bad tool.
 
CDAV45 said:
Who's hating on Morgan? Some of you guys need to sharpen your comprehension skills. There's no hate when someone views him as a #5 because that's exactly what he is. Morgan is nothing but insurance/depth for this organization. "Almost a 3rd starter" is laughable unless it's for a non-competitive team with no SP depth. FFS if he's "almost a 3rd starter" then lets deal him for a good corner OF bat. Think there would be any takers? That's rhetorical because everyone here knows it wouldn't happen unless it's a big contract that a team is looking to unload.

I'll wait to see if "Morgan is a better Tomlin". If he is it's marginal at best which still makes him a #5.

Edited to say that I like the kid and I find myself rooting for him to succeed, but the talent is limited. He's the underdog everyone loves.
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The potential trade of Eli Morgan is one where the Guardians won't return the value he brings to the club..

That value is as:
-a solid back of the rotation,
-innings eating,
-professional outing delivering

major league starting pitcher. Tomlin was like that.. Jeremy Sours.. and some of the other underdog / soft tossing / little guys that Tondo likes to champion.. were like that too.. it's another POV to consider.. a valid one....
 
PPark said:
The issue is the validity of the proposal(s) not the valuation of the players. That Giants offer is fair value but doesn’t meet what the Guardians would need in moving Plesac. Find a catcher and OF that would make the 26-man roster then I’m sure the FO would entertain it now. Heck, that offer if the circumstances were different might get a look.

Striking your thumb with a hammer doesn’t make the hammer a bad tool.
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Doesn't make your thumb a good nail head, either.. but that would take looking at a deal from more than one narrow point of view.. which you have done.. context matters..
 
Gson said:
The potential trade of Eli Morgan is one where the Guardians won't return the value he brings to the club..

That value is as:
-a solid back of the rotation,
-innings eating,
-professional outing delivering

major league starting pitcher. Tomlin was like that.. Jeremy Sours.. and some of the other underdog / soft tossing / little guys that Tondo likes to champion.. were like that too.. it's another POV to consider.. a valid one....
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Don't disagree with anything you said here. Pretty much the way I see Eli, but he's not a #3 and probably not a #4 either. He's the quintessential #5 SP or long man.
 
Tondo said:
You're hedging your bet here.

You say he's a 5th SP, but at the same time are not saying saying that you don't want him as our 5th SP (insurance/depth). What is it? Are you cool with him in our rotation going into the season, yes or no?

To me, he's a legit ML 5th SP and I like him for that role better than Hentges or L. S. Allen. And again, he's far from a finished product, especially considering he barely pitched at AAA. You make it sound like he's a 30yo journeyman, Morgan's 25 and keeps improving
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With the personnel this team has, no I don't want him as the #5. Should there be injuries to a number of starters like last season then I'm fine with Eli getting some starts. I'm definitely fine with him being the long man.

I would most definitely want Eli in the 5 spot before Hentges, but I'll wait to see if LS Allen has progressed before I make that comparison.

At no time did I make it sound like Morgan "is a 30yo journeyman", you took that upon yourself to assume that.
 
sportscoach said:
Well from your posts and some others it really did sound like Morgan is nothing more than a warm body that can pitch some...

Morgan has one of the best changeups in the game right now and his fastball-changeup combo actually is very good. If he can find another pitch that plays off well from those two, he is actually going to make himself a legit SP on any team. His slider is his next pitch and honestly it hasn't put up good numbers.

Kluber wasn't really that great until he changed his pitches around, which he did after he got to Cleveland.. My point being if Morgan can find another pitch to mix properly with what he does well, it's very possible he goes from a legit #5 to something greater. No, he will never be an Ace, but he can become greater than a number 5.
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Hell, we can apply "what ifs" to a number of guys. He's a good pitcher with limited ability. I don't know what else you want me to say.

Please don't compare Morgan with Kluber. They are and were entirely different profiles.
 
CATS44 said:
Big difference between TMac and Morris.

As you mentioned, TMac had thrown 143 IP in a season previously. The 141.1 he threw last year was hardly out of line.

He had also thrown 332 IP before hitting MLB.

No two situations are the same, but if the org put the same limitations on Morris as on TMac, Morris wouldnt hit 100 IP this year.

*********

On other notes...

Garza and Stephan are relievers...period. I dont know why there is any question of that. One thing this org is not lacking in thru the top three levels is SP prospect depth.

*********

If an injury were to occur to one of our five rotation members in Spring Training severe enough to keep him out five or six turns thru the rotation, my guess is that Allen will be next in line, not Morgan.

If Allen had options, he would probably be #6 anyway.

Folks forget how really young Allen is. He is younger than both Morgan and Morris, and about the same age as TMac, Pilkington, and Battenfield. He's only about a year older than Allen Jr, Gaddis, and Curry.

The problem with Allen is the lack of an option, and that hurts our immediate depth.

***********

Morgans value is the same as Plutkos.....the ability to be an expendable AAAA pitcher that bounces between Cleveland and Columbus as needed. When his options run out, so does his value. Like Plutko, he will have several younger prospects whiz by him as they gain pro experience.

Morgan may be #6/7 today, but I highly doubt that anybody views him as that in a year.
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Could not agree more regarding your comments on Morgan. Great kid and good depth, but there's just too much SP talent and it's likely that he gets buried deeper in the coming years.

I think we're all in agreement about Garza and Stephan. That's a nothing burger.

Folks for sure forget how young LS Allen is. I think they underestimate his "stuff" too. If he can increase his control we're looking at a pretty damn good LHSP IMO. We'll see how things pan out.
 
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