2020-2021 Cavs Season General Discussion

[stick]

The Cavs are 13-14 against the East this year.

Only Chicago (12-11) has a better record against the East among Eastern teams currently out of the top 8 seeds.

There are 21 games left in the season. 15 of them are against Eastern opponents (Toronto x2, Charlotte x2, Chicago x2, Detroit, Orlando, Indiana, Miami, Boston, Wizards x3, Brooklyn).

 

[Rich]

Yea the Cavs remaining schedule is pretty bad.

Look, I don't think this roster works longterm.

But what I think doesn't make it so. The kids deserve a chance to prove me wrong and they can only do that by playing.

If Garland continues to improve like this and Sexton keeps playing off the ball like this...how can we complain?

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Yea the Cavs remaining schedule is pretty bad.

Look, I don't think this roster works longterm.

But what I think doesn't make it so. The kids deserve a chance to prove me wrong and they can only do that by playing.

If Garland continues to improve like this and Sexton keeps playing off the ball like this...how can we complain?

We can and I will. Watch me.

 

[ansatsusha80]

 

[Rich]

We can and I will. Watch me.

Isn't the point of getting high draft picks to get good players?

So don't you have to play those players to find out of if they're good?


Like don't you want to see if Garland and Sexton and Okoro prove what you and I think about them wrong? Because if we are wrong, then what we need in this draft changes.

 

[Sebastian]

the best team in the NBA this year is built around mid and late round picks and a strong organizational culture.

Since Embry and the 80's/90's team, the Cavs have always needed the top of the draft picks to cover the fact that the organization has been somewhat sick. I hope we are in a different place now, but it is worrisome that at the top of the org chart is Dan Gilbert with reports of his kid rising as well. Dan's got his pluses and minuses, but from the outside looking in, a strong basketball culture doesn't seem to emanate from the team a'la a Utah or Milwaukee or San Antonio or Miami.

This is a very good post.

People are still bitching about passing whomever over the past couple years. I think it has become very clear that the Cavs need a shot at a no-brainer pick.

The Cavaliers have a very shaky organization and it is rather interesting to see people say that the Cavs can build a culture of winning within that chaos with a very mediocre roster.

"It is more important to create a winning culture," or "The time for tanking is over, is time to start winning." It doesn't work that way. That somehow talent will grow with time, patience and good coaching. That a winning culture can paper over a lack of talent. That doesn't happen often, or at all. Teams just don't declare rebuilds over and then they magically win 50 games. They start winning when they have the talent to compete. And rebuild is only over when the team has the talent win a playoff series. And there is no set time limit. It depends on talent acquisition.

For those that are a little older, the Fratello Cavs are a great example of what happens to a franchise that refuses to undergo a full rebuild and tries to maximize a mediocre roster. Not only did they win just one playoff game in five seasons, but they managed to miss out on the utter bonanza of talent that came out of those mid-90s Lotteries.

I think some assume the Cavaliers will hit a rebuild curve in the way the Nuggets have, or Utah. But the Cavs are not Utah or Denver, and as you say, has zero history of developing players during the Gilbert regime that weren't #1 picks. Denver and Utah did really well in identifying late round talent and that particular skill is not common nor replicable. And people overlook that the Jazz and Nuggets have endured their share of bad teams and austere rebuilding.

 

[Sebastian]

Isn't the point of getting high draft picks to get good players?

So don't you have to play those players to find out of if they're good?


Like don't you want to see if Garland and Sexton and Okoro prove what you and I think about them wrong? Because if we are wrong, then what we need in this draft changes.

I don't get this mentality.

Its not like they aren't playing and haven't had the majority of the season under the belt.

Unless those three guys become All-Stars, what they bring to the table isn't enough for the Cavs to contend for a couple reasons.

Based off what we have seen, does winning 30 games as opposed to 25 really change the trajectories of those players?

Because those five wins absolutely can change the trajectory of a franchise. *Cough* Doncic. *Cough*

 

[Derek]

What exactly are we afraid of here?

We're 5-10 since the All-Star break. It's not like we're on some big winning streak. If Garland and Sexton are good enough to lead us to a few wins down the stretch, that sounds like a good thing.

If we're the 8th/9th worst team this year, so be it. Hopefully, we'll draft well and see further improvement/chemistry/health out of our players next year.

 

["MVP"]

I'll never root for tanking. The Cavs have some exciting young players, and I want to watch them try to win. And newsflash, even when playing to win, we still have a mediocre roster that will lose many more games the rest of the season.

If the argument is to fake or exaggerate injuries to Sexton or Garland to out-tank some aggressive tankers, I just can't endorse that.

Take OKC as an example. What kind of message does it send to SGA when your organization has been trying to be as bad possible since you've gotten there? What kind of culture does that set for your team? I wouldn't be surprised in the least if SGA leaves or asks out as his first opportunity.

 

[Rich]

This is a very good post.

People are still bitching about passing whomever over the past couple years. I think it has become very clear that the Cavs need a shot at a no-brainer pick.

The Cavaliers have a very shaky organization and it is rather interesting to see people say that the Cavs can build a culture of winning within that chaos with a very mediocre roster.

"It is more important to create a winning culture," or "The time for tanking is over, is time to start winning." It doesn't work that way. That somehow talent will grow with time, patience and good coaching. That a winning culture can paper over a lack of talent. That doesn't happen often, or at all. Teams just don't declare rebuilds over and then they magically win 50 games. They start winning when they have the talent to compete. And rebuild is only over when the team has the talent win a playoff series. And there is no set time limit. It depends on talent acquisition.

For those that are a little older, the Fratello Cavs are a great example of what happens to a franchise that refuses to undergo a full rebuild and tries to maximize a mediocre roster. Not only did they win just one playoff game in five seasons, but they managed to miss out on the utter bonanza of talent that came out of those mid-90s Lotteries.

I think some assume the Cavaliers will hit a rebuild curve in the way the Nuggets have, or Utah. But the Cavs are not Utah or Denver, and as you say, has zero history of developing players during the Gilbert regime that weren't #1 picks. Denver and Utah did really well in identifying late round talent and that particular skill is not common nor replicable. And people overlook that the Jazz and Nuggets have endured their share of bad teams and austere rebuilding.

Team's also don't magically go from the 2nd worst team in the league to contender status in a years time, either. Winning comes in phases.

And yea, winning 30 games would be a pretty big step for a team this young, with this many injuries all season. That's not something to just gloss over.


I would implore to watch the next few games and see how Garland and Sexton are playing. They don't look like the same guys they did 20 games ago.

 

[Sebastian]

What exactly are we afraid of here?

We're 5-10 since the All-Star break. It's not like we're on some big winning streak. If Garland and Sexton are good enough to lead us to a few wins down the stretch, that sounds like a good thing.

If we're the 8th/9th worst team this year, so be it. Hopefully, we'll draft well and see further improvement/chemistry/health out of our players next year.

Afraid of sucking for the next decade. And it can easily happen.

The Cavs are three years into a rebuild and that is not a long period of time. Three years removed from playing the Finals and people are getting impatient.

Things could have gone better. If they had been lucky one of the past three years and got that franchise guy this Draft isn't as important.

But they didn't so it is. This team is not another decent player away from completing the rebuild. It still needs a franchise player. This draft has a lot of talent, and it would be tragic to miss out on the final piece over five more wins to an already moribund team.

 

[Rich]

I don't get this mentality.

Its not like they aren't playing and haven't had the majority of the season under the belt.

Unless those three guys become All-Stars, what they bring to the table isn't enough for the Cavs to contend for a couple reasons.

Based off what we have seen, does winning 30 games as opposed to 25 really change the trajectories of those players?

Because those five wins absolutely can change the trajectory of a franchise. *Cough* Doncic. *Cough*

Yes. A transformation is underway, particularly with Sexton, in how he plays the game.

That only happens, though, by playing the games. And with players who don't completely suck. This wouldn't be happening if they were out and out tanking.

 

[Rich]

Afraid of sucking for the next decade. And it can easily happen.

The Cavs are three years into a rebuild and that is not a long period of time. Three years removed from playing the Finals and people are getting impatient.

Things could have gone better. If they had been lucky one of the past three years and got that franchise guy this Draft isn't as important.

But they didn't so it is. This team is not another decent player away from completing the rebuild. It still needs a franchise player. This draft has a lot of talent, and it would be tragic to miss out on the final piece over five more wins to an already moribund team.

The two teams sitting atop the West don't have a franchise player.

The team in 3rd drafted theirs in the 2nd round.

I mean hell, even the Clippers. Kawhi wasn't a lottery pick. Paul George was picked 10th.


There are other ways and there are examples all over the league atm.

 

[Sebastian]

I'll never root for tanking. The Cavs have some exciting young players, and I want to watch them try to win. And newsflash, even when playing to win, we still have a mediocre roster that will lose many more games the rest of the season.

If the argument is to fake or exaggerate injuries to Sexton or Garland to out-tank some aggressive tankers, I just can't endorse that.

Take OKC as an example. What kind of message does it send to SGA when your organization has been trying to be as bad possible since you've gotten there? What kind of culture does that set for your team? I wouldn't be surprised in the least if SGA leaves or asks out as his first opportunity.

Winning cultures are overrated. They matter in the context of a stable organization and great coaching that can squeeze blood from stones. That is a very long-term endeavor. The Cavs have not demonstrated that it can foster that environment.

Ultimately the best thing OKC can do for SGA is give him an all-star running mate to win with for the next decade. Whether they won few extra games is not going to change his or the franchises trajectory for the good.

Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love did not need winning cultures to succeed. They need a talented roster.

 

[Derek]

Afraid of sucking for the next decade. And it can easily happen.

The Cavs are three years into a rebuild and that is not a long period of time. Three years removed from playing the Finals and people are getting impatient.

Things could have gone better. If they had been lucky one of the past three years and got that franchise guy this Draft isn't as important.

But they didn't so it is. This team is not another decent player away from completing the rebuild. It still needs a franchise player. This draft has a lot of talent, and it would be tragic to miss out on the final piece over five more wins to an already moribund team.

If we suck, then won't we get good draft picks?

If we suck, it'll be because of an inept front office, not because we didn't have good enough picks.