2020-21 Offseason Discussion

[CDAV45]

I wonder if Grichuk or even Gurriel could be had for one of our ML-ready SP

I'll be pissed if they give up a good, young SP for Grichuk when they could have signed Renfroe for $3M and Duvall is still available. If the market is favoring young, inexpensive players/prospects over high paid, proven veterans then it should work in Cleveland's favor when moving them. Getting Grichuk isn't doing that, and honestly neither is Guirriel Jr. I'm not confident that he is even a 3 WAR player when you factor in his poor defense. I'd rather see LF, 1B, and DH covered by Reyes, Jones, and Bradley, but that's not going to happen. We're stuck hoping that Naylor will do better than the 247/291/330/621 he gave last season and hopefully he can belt more than 1 HR over 97 AB. Which would give him a grand total of 7 or so over the course of a full season.

 

[CDAV45]

your overall roster looks pretty spot on, but I think Chang is our 2021 SS to start the year and Gimenez starts in AAA.

They're not worried about Gimenez's service time when Arias, Rocchio and others will be knipping at his heels relatively soon. Chang or Rosario will be our 2B and UIF.

With such a weak lineup, defense will be more important than it ever has making Gimenez the favorite.

 

[sportscoach]

There's still time and anything could happen, but I'd guess that most(if not all) of the money that CA said would be reinvested will go towards extending players already on the roster, ie Bieber.

If you are one that has faith that any of Mercado, Bauers, Bradley, Johnson, or Zimmer will "figure it out" and that Jones will be ready to contribute sometime in 21 then we don't really know what positions to even address. I think it's safe to say that Gimenez and Rosario will win SS and 2B duties and there is plenty of depth behind them in Chang, Miller, and maybe Freeman at some point as well. 1B is a logjam with Bauers, Bradley, and Naylor. C is covered by Perez and Hedges. 3B is a lock as long as we have Ramirez. LF is covered with Naylor or Bauers, CF is Mercado and/or Zimmer. RF will probably be Johnson and Luplow. Where will Jones debut if/when he is called up? That will depend on who is performing the worst I guess. This may be the most depressing roster, position player wise, that I've witnessed in a long time.

My fear is that they'll hang onto Ramirez and his numbers will falter do to this pathetic lineup. He'll walk more than Carlos Santana if we play the season out as is. Teams will not let him beat them and they will be idiots if they do.

This is quite the conundrum we have here. It would be nice if CA would shed some light on the issue instead of vague open ended comments.

CA always answers in vague open ended comments lol

I actually think we will go get a veteran bat of some type in the OF, now whether its in free agency or via trade I am not sure at the end of the day. Also since we moved Carrasco, I really doubt we will trade anyone else from our starting staff, but we still have a ton of good prospects, so making a trade for a Gurriel type, makes sense on paper, and it won't be from our current starting rotation.

Guirrel also did make a jump in LF defensively in 20 and he doesn't have much experience in the OF overall at the end of the day, so hopefully the trend moves that way for his sake. He is a converted 2B so he can at east play a few positions if need be.

I personally don't think it will be Guirrel now since they didn't sign Brantley, but I think they will target someone with team control who has some MLB experience to bring in honestly. Who exactly is the question since the organization is very tight lipped and we don't know anything until the move is actually almost fully done.

 

[MadThinker88]

They're not worried about Gimenez's service time when Arias, Rocchio and others will be knipping at his heels relatively soon. Chang or Rosario will be our 2B and UIF.

With such a weak lineup, defense will be more important than it ever has making Gimenez the favorite.

@CDAV45
There is a difference in picking up an additional year of control & trying to avoid Super 2. A couple weeks not on the MLB roster will get the extra year of team control with Gimenez. One would be talking mid/ late June to avoid Super 2 for Gimenez (or Nolan Jones).

One other thing - You suggested players like Arias/ Rocchio will be knipping at the heels relatively soon.
But where are those players playing at the start of the season?? The minor league levels below AAA have already been told they are being delayed in their start (somewhere between 3 to 6 weeks). Those levels wont even begin their spring training until the MLB & AAA levels depart camp/ Spring Training. Even if the position players are ready to quickly begin, the various pitchers will still need to get into game shape/ stretched out.

It is reasonable to see the CLEFO try to use those first early weeks as an opportunity for Rosario & Chang up the middle (in some combination). If after a couple of weeks one of them is not performing/ injured, Gimenez gets called up from AAA and inserted into the lineup. In the meantime a player like Ernie Clement could reasonably fill the UIF role & then get sent down once all of Gimenez/ Chang/ Rosario are healthy...

 

[DerekG123]

CA always answers in vague open ended comments lol

I actually think we will go get a veteran bat of some type in the OF, now whether its in free agency or via trade I am not sure at the end of the day. Also since we moved Carrasco, I really doubt we will trade anyone else from our starting staff, but we still have a ton of good prospects, so making a trade for a Gurriel type, makes sense on paper, and it won't be from our current starting rotation.

Guirrel also did make a jump in LF defensively in 20 and he doesn't have much experience in the OF overall at the end of the day, so hopefully the trend moves that way for his sake. He is a converted 2B so he can at east play a few positions if need be.

I personally don't think it will be Guirrel now since they didn't sign Brantley, but I think they will target someone with team control who has some MLB experience to bring in honestly. Who exactly is the question since the organization is very tight lipped and we don't know anything until the move is actually almost fully done.

Getting a washed up vet at league min is definetely a move I expect.

 

[CDAV45]

@CDAV45
There is a difference in picking up an additional year of control & trying to avoid Super 2. A couple weeks not on the MLB roster will get the extra year of team control with Gimenez. One would be talking mid/ late June to avoid Super 2 for Gimenez (or Nolan Jones).

One other thing - You suggested players like Arias/ Rocchio will be knipping at the heels relatively soon.
But where are those players playing at the start of the season?? The minor league levels below AAA have already been told they are being delayed in their start (somewhere between 3 to 6 weeks). Those levels wont even begin their spring training until the MLB & AAA levels depart camp/ Spring Training. Even if the position players are ready to quickly begin, the various pitchers will still need to get into game shape/ stretched out.

It is reasonable to see the CLEFO try to use those first early weeks as an opportunity for Rosario & Chang up the middle (in some combination). If after a couple of weeks one of them is not performing/ injured, Gimenez gets called up from AAA and inserted into the lineup. In the meantime a player like Ernie Clement could reasonably fill the UIF role & then get sent down once all of Gimenez/ Chang/ Rosario are healthy...

Gimenez's 1st arb year isn't until 2023. I don't think the extra year of control is of concern with all the MIF depth, regardless of when the minor league season starts. What is of concern to them is maintaining good defense up the middle. Maybe you're right, but we'll see in about a month or so.

Ernie Clement shouldn't be part of this conversation IMO. We have the likes of Gimenez, Rosario, Chang, Miller, and maybe Freeman at some point in 21. If we see Ernie f'n Clement out there then we're tanking for a draft pick and we might as well keep everyone down for an extra year of control.

I think Chang will find it difficult to beat out Rosario or Miller in any role, but again we'll have to wait and see.

 

[MadThinker88]

Gimenez's 1st arb year isn't until 2023. I don't think the extra year of control is of concern with all the MIF depth, regardless of when the minor league season starts. What is of concern to them is maintaining good defense up the middle. Maybe you're right, but we'll see in about a month or so.

Ernie Clement shouldn't be part of this conversation IMO. We have the likes of Gimenez, Rosario, Chang, Miller, and maybe Freeman at some point in 21. If we see Ernie f'n Clement out there then we're tanking for a draft pick and we might as well keep everyone down for an extra year of control.

I think Chang will find it difficult to beat out Rosario or Miller in any role, but again we'll have to wait and see.

Gimenez would be eligible for arbitration going into 2023 (and be on pace for free agency after the 2025 season) if he doesn't spend IIRC 21 calendar days in the minors in either 2021 or 2022.

Yes Ernie Clement has a role in the overall 2021 conversation - as a utility/ backup. Did you somehow think I wanted him getting regular at-bats in MLB over anyone else?? If the CLEFO didn't think Clement would be an option for the UIF role, they would have never added him to the 40 man roster in November.

It is my preference that the UIF does not play unless there is an in-game injury or lineup movement during a game due to switches/ substitutions. That is why a vet tends to land in that role. Playing maybe 1 or 2 times a week tends to get a player rusty.
Looking at the CLE 40 man roster as it currently stands would you rather Ernie FN Clement ride the pine as a backup in MLB while Owen Miller & others regularly play (in MLB or AAA developing) or the reverse??

 

[CDAV45]

Gimenez would be eligible for arbitration going into 2023 (and be on pace for free agency after the 2025 season) if he doesn't spend IIRC 21 calendar days in the minors in either 2021 or 2022.

Yes Ernie Clement has a role in the overall 2021 conversation - as a utility/ backup. Did you somehow think I wanted him getting regular at-bats in MLB over anyone else?? If the CLEFO didn't think Clement would be an option for the UIF role, they would have never added him to the 40 man roster in November.

It is my preference that the UIF does not play unless there is an in-game injury or lineup movement during a game due to switches/ substitutions. That is why a vet tends to land in that role. Playing maybe 1 or 2 times a week tends to get a player rusty.
Looking at the CLE 40 man roster as it currently stands would you rather Ernie FN Clement ride the pine as a backup in MLB while Owen Miller & others regularly play (in MLB or AAA developing) or the reverse??

That's how I read Gimenez's contract as well. He'll be a FA in 6 yrs if he wins the starting job.

Well I guess it depends on the quality of the bench player. Clement, like Michael Martinez, is not someone you want to see regularly. On the other hand, a quality bat like Miller's would be a welcome sight and it's easy enough to get more than 6 AB in a week. He might be preferred late in a close game when you need the ball put in play. He's the type of hitter that gets on base at a good clip, so maybe you want him leading off if you're down a run. Hell, he's a good enough hitter that he could force Rosario into the utility role. I don't know how any of this is going to work out, but I do know that Clement is not the caliber of player that Miller appears to be. At least that's what the numbers bear. I guess we need to know how the UIF is going to be used, because the SS and 2B scenario is a little different now than it has been in the last few years.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

The pandemic has obviously had a tremendous effect on baseball and sports in general.
But IMO the Indians are in dire straits. Maybe more so than any other mlb team.
In a normal year, the Indians would offer a ton of minor league contracts with spring training invites.
Guys like Hanley Ramirez and CarGo.
This year? Nothing..... Crickets.
Right now, I would be happy to have Jason Kipnis back. He would have a better than 50-50 chance to start in our OF.
This lack of even trying to improve the roster is very concerning to me.

 

[Kevalier]

I don’t see Yu Chang being a priority for this organization at all and I wouldn’t be surprised if he is no longer on the roster by Opening Day. With Kike Hernandez signing a two year $14 million contact with Boston today, I would expect Cesar Hernandez to earn a similar AAV. I think it’s a very real possibility that he’s back here for the upcoming season.

 

[petes999]

.

Looking at the CLE 40 man roster as it currently stands would you rather Ernie FN Clement ride the pine as a backup in MLB while Owen Miller & others regularly play (in MLB or AAA developing) or the reverse??

Of course, Ernie would get the sort-end of the stick/bench. Yet, Owen is not that far off from regular playing time. He had a full AA season and hit better than Ernie. I see the alt site experience plus 2 ST being worth about 1/2 season (more intense training as travel time wasn't built in). But, in all honesty, I think it will be Miller/Rosario/Jones shagging flies in the OF to see if anyone of them makes the transition. I can see Mercado/Johnson/Rosario or Miller/Luplow filling first 4 OF roles (if Bauers and Zimmer are mediocre as expected in ST).

Then you have Giminez - SS & Rosario or Miller 2nd with Chang as the Ultility. If Chang has a Zimmer ST, he may get 2nd with Rosario in OF and thus forcing Miller to get a little extra time in AAA (to play regularly). Yet, Chang will be on a short leash -- this would be Clement's only shot at Indians bench (other than injury call up). For those who think Giminez was rushed (maybe), but 1/3 season in MLB was a growing opportunity - and thus would be ready now. They won't play service issues with him like they ultimately didn't with Plesac. You can say it was the Clev trade but I didn't think he was going to stay down just to be manipulated (bad player PR).

I think Clement will be stashed for the season in AAA as an emergency call-up into that utility role. He may show something which would increase his trade value come year-end (better throw-in PTBNL). Chang has more opportunity to actually stick long-term in that utility role than Clement.

Miller may ultimately be that utility role guy (super utility with OF/3B/2B/SS). Yet, I see the Indians pressing him this year in a 2b/OF role (3B if Ramirez is traded) just to get those important MLB at bats before giving up his position to Arias/Valera/Jones when they are ready.

 

[CDAV45]

The pandemic has obviously had a tremendous effect on baseball and sports in general.
But IMO the Indians are in dire straits. Maybe more so than any other mlb team.
In a normal year, the Indians would offer a ton of minor league contracts with spring training invites.
Guys like Hanley Ramirez and CarGo.
This year? Nothing..... Crickets.
Right now, I would be happy to have Jason Kipnis back. He would have a better than 50-50 chance to start in our OF.
This lack of even trying to improve the roster is very concerning to me.

Signing guys like Hanley and CarGo proved to be a poor use of resources long before the pandemic set in.

There is no reason to want Kipnis back. We have Rosario, Miller, Chang, and maybe even Freeman at some point in season to battle for 2B. These guys have moderate to good upsides and everyone of them are better defensively IMO. I think 2B is Rosario's to lose, but if Miller ability to hit continues at the highest level then he could force his way in. This isn't the level of Lindor and Hernandez, but it could be decent.

All of Naylor, Zimmer, Johnson, Mercado, Bauers, Luplow, Reyes and Jones are on the roster. They'll need to sort through who can contribute from an OF spot and who cannot. I think I recall Tito mentioning that guys are going to get an opportunity to prove themselves more than prior years.

Still, my question of who gets the boot if a trade is made or a FA is brought in hasn't been answered. I guess the question would be better asked by who do any of us think that Tito, CA, and MC will give up on to make room for an addition?

 

[Criznit]

One thing to consider with Chang is he is probably the best 3rd baseman we have on the 40 not named Jose. Feel he is our starting shortstop for at least a month, and is our only real current/internal secondary 3B option ready for ML at bats.

 

[Andrew Scheid]

When Tribe President Chris Antonetti said the team did have some money to spend after trading Francisco Lindor and Carlos Carrasco to the Mets, I tried to find out how much. The payroll is in the $35 million to $40 million range. I’m hearing they can add another $5 million to perhaps $10 million (at the most).

It's becoming increasingly harder to summon a level of excitement for this franchise. I love Cleveland. I love baseball. I don't think the team got nearly the fan support that they deserved since 2013, but having the lowest payroll in the league is indefensible. We have the highest local TV ratings in the league and a stadium that is far better than Tampa or Oakland.

Does anyone think that the team relocating is a possibility after the lease expires in 2023? I never entertained the idea before, but now I'm really starting to.

 

[AZ_]

When Tribe President Chris Antonetti said the team did have some money to spend after trading Francisco Lindor and Carlos Carrasco to the Mets, I tried to find out how much. The payroll is in the $35 million to $40 million range. I’m hearing they can add another $5 million to perhaps $10 million (at the most).

It's becoming increasingly harder to summon a level of excitement for this franchise. I love Cleveland. I love baseball. I don't think the team got nearly the fan support that they deserved since 2013, but having the lowest payroll in the league is indefensible. We have the highest local TV ratings in the league and a stadium that is far better than Tampa or Oakland.

Does anyone think that the team relocating is a possibility after the lease expires in 2023? I never entertained the idea before, but now I'm really starting to.

TV ratings and quality of stadium don’t mean much when the team doesn’t have a great TV deal, and doesn’t fill the stadium.

Cleveland has to decide if they want to support a consistent winner, whether Dolan sells the franchise or not.