2020-21 Offseason Discussion

[TxBuckeye]

2019. And build what around him? He'll be one of two or three guys in the lineup next year that are better than replacement level. His contract is the reason we should get a huge haul for him, more than we'll get for Lindor.

2019 was a down year? 23 HR's, 83 RBI and 24 SB's is a down year? Give him 10-15 more hits (which is less than 1 a week and he's hitting in the mid .280's and nobody says a word). He had a bad couple months. A bad year is a bad YEAR (And the funny thing is he still hit .262 w/RISP in his "down" year). He turned things around in the second half and carried it into an MVP caliber season in 2020. Yea, I'm keeping him over Lindor and using him as my centerpiece.

You are welcome to your opinion but I disagree with you.

 

[Chris]

2019 was a down year? lol. He had a bad couple months. A bad year is a bad YEAR (And the funny thing is he still hit .262 w/RISP in his "down" year). He turned things around in the second half and carried it into an MVP caliber season in 2020. Yea, I'm keeping him over Lindor.

You are welcome to your opinion but I disagree with you.

It was a down year. Shocked we are even having this discussion. Quoting his BA w/ RISP is not sufficient evidence to the contrary. Let’s discuss the rest of his stats that year. He finished well which prevented it from being an awful year for him, but if I recall his recovery began in the final third of the season.

 

[TxBuckeye]

It was a down year. Shocked we are even having this discussion. Quoting his BA w/ RISP is not sufficient evidence to the contrary. Let’s discuss the rest of his stats that year. He finished well which prevented it from being an awful year for him, but if I recall his recovery began in the final third of the season.

Yep, I just edited my post to add that but I'll repeat it here
23 Hr's
83 RBI
24 SB's
and missed 30 games due to injury.

I'll take a down year every year if that is as bad as it gets.

And with just a smidge of luck here and there (less than 1 hit a week) and he's hitting in the mid .280's.

Again, I'll respectfully disagree.

 

[Chris]

Yep, I just edited my post to add that but I'll repeat it here
23 Hr's
83 RBI
24 SB's
and missed 30 games due to injury.

I'll take a down year every year if that is as bad as it gets.

And with just a smidge of luck here and there (less than 1 hit a week) and he's hitting in the mid .280's.

Again, I'll respectfully disagree.

From 2017-2020, which year was his OPS well below .900? Since he came onto the scene I just can’t get behind the argument that 2019 wasn’t a down year/outlier/whatever you want to call it for Jram.

Not that I disagree with your main point. Ramirez is on a team friendly contract and you could absolutely argue he is better than Lindor at this point.

 

[TxBuckeye]

From 2017-2020, which year was his OPS well below .900? Since he came onto the scene I just can’t get behind the argument that 2019 wasn’t a down year/outlier/whatever you want to call it for Jram.

Not that I disagree with your main point. Ramirez is on a team friendly contract and you could absolutely argue he is better than Lindor at this point.

And his OPS in the second half that year was 1.105.

Give him those 30 games he missed due to injury and we wouldn't even be having a conversation. Anyway, like I said, you have your opinion and I have mine.

 

[OptimusPrime]

I'm not saying I would keep Lindor over Ramirez. I absolutely wouldn't. Ramirez is at least as good a player and on a great contract. Lindor half assed his way through this season daydreaming about getting out of town. I'm saying trade them both and blow it up.

We can get a better haul for Ramirez than Lindor. And if we only trade Lindor, and get back a similar return to our other recent trades, then no matter how good Ramirez is, the Indians will be lucky to be .500 next year. Even if they manage a little better than that, they still have no chance to beat someone like the Yankees in the playoffs.

Now if baseball decides to permanently go with 8 playoff teams per league, then I could be convinced to keep Ramirez and stay on the treadmill for another year or two. But if they go back to 5 teams, then pull the plug.

 

[bob2the2nd]

I'm not saying I would keep Lindor over Ramirez. I absolutely wouldn't. Ramirez is at least as good a player and on a great contract. Lindor half assed his way through this season daydreaming about getting out of town. I'm saying trade them both and blow it up.

We can get a better haul for Ramirez than Lindor. And if we only trade Lindor, and get back a similar return to our other recent trades, then no matter how good Ramirez is, the Indians will be lucky to be .500 next year. Even if they manage a little better than that, they still have no chance to beat someone like the Yankees in the playoffs.

Now if baseball decides to permanently go with 8 playoff teams per league, then I could be convinced to keep Ramirez and stay on the treadmill for another year or two. But if they go back to 5 teams, then pull the plug.

So let me follow this argument. Lindor doesnt contribute anything to the the team and thus should be traded, but the team makes shitty trades. Thus trading lindor makes the team worse because the indians arent good at making trades, and because the team is worse the indians should also trade rameriez because they can get better a better trade.

 

[daddywags]

I'm not saying I would keep Lindor over Ramirez. I absolutely wouldn't. Ramirez is at least as good a player and on a great contract. Lindor half assed his way through this season daydreaming about getting out of town. I'm saying trade them both and blow it up.

We can get a better haul for Ramirez than Lindor. And if we only trade Lindor, and get back a similar return to our other recent trades, then no matter how good Ramirez is, the Indians will be lucky to be .500 next year. Even if they manage a little better than that, they still have no chance to beat someone like the Yankees in the playoffs.

Now if baseball decides to permanently go with 8 playoff teams per league, then I could be convinced to keep Ramirez and stay on the treadmill for another year or two. But if they go back to 5 teams, then pull the plug.

If you're going to give up on 2021+'22 you might as well trade Bieber, too, because he'll be in his second year of arbitration by 2023.

 

[Gson]

So let me follow this argument. Lindor doesnt contribute anything to the the team and thus should be traded, but the team makes shitty trades. Thus trading lindor makes the team worse because the indians arent good at making trades, and because the team is worse the indians should also trade rameriez because they can get better a better trade.

yes.. you've followed the 'presented' logic exactly..

The truth..on the other hand.. doesn't follow the logic.. thank goodness..

 

[Gson]

If you're going to give up on 2021+'22 you might as well trade Bieber, too, because he'll be in his second year of arbitration by 2023.

Trading Bieber wouldn't necessarily signal give up.. it could signal reloading.. The example that was posted in the MLBTr site indicated that the Red Sox got so much less for Mookie because the Red Sox insisted on including the massive contract of David 'over-Price-d'. By coupling Frankie Lindor with Bieber, the team getting this dynamic duo would get half the cost and twice the future.. if they're able to secure a contract extension from Lindor. Of course, that's the acquiring team's business.. not the Indians..

and, FWiW.. I am not a fan of trading both..but I am a fan of reloading.. quite the conundrum.. eh?.

Thoughts?>.

 

[daddywags]

Trading Bieber wouldn't necessarily signal give up.. it could signal reloading.. The example that was posted in the MLBTr site indicated that the Red Sox got so much less for Mookie because the Red Sox insisted on including the massive contract of David 'over-Price-d'. By coupling Frankie Lindor with Bieber, the team getting this dynamic duo would get half the cost and twice the future.. if they're able to secure a contract extension from Lindor. Of course, that's the acquiring team's business.. not the Indians..

and, FWiW.. I am not a fan of trading both..but I am a fan of reloading.. quite the conundrum.. eh?.

Thoughts?>.

If by reloading you mean trading our best players and still somehow remaining competitive for the playoffs in the near term you could interest me. I don't think the odds of that being possible are very good though.

 

[Gson]

If by reloading you mean trading our best players and still somehow remaining competitive for the playoffs in the near term you could interest me. I don't think the odds of that being possible are very good though.

Trading arguably your two best players is the example.. and yes, the odds on making the playoffs do take a hit.. especially considering the replacement for either or both are so significantly less.

Of course.. what returns could mitigate that hit on the odds of making the playoffs.. moreso after the 2021 season as Lindor would be gone by then..

Good response..

 

[OptimusPrime]

So let me follow this argument. Lindor doesnt contribute anything to the the team and thus should be traded, but the team makes shitty trades. Thus trading lindor makes the team worse because the indians arent good at making trades, and because the team is worse the indians should also trade rameriez because they can get better a better trade.

I said Lindor doesn't contribute anything to the team? He's a good player. Much better than whoever will be there next year even without his full attention. Trading Lindor will definitely make the team worse. But he's not going to stay here, so he's got to go anyway.

Then take a look around. Santana is finished. Hernandez was solid, but he'll probably want to get paid. The outfield is a joke. Pitchers hit better than their catchers. You'll have Ramirez, Reyes, and what? Maybe a veteran has a decent year like Hernandez did this year? Maybe one of the young players steps up to be an above average player? And you have 5 holes in the lineup, two teams in the division that are clearly better, a starting rotation that is good in the regular season but lacks elite stuff to beat good offensive teams.

Like I said, if there are going to be 8 playoff teams, then whatever. Run out the string for another year or two. But Ramirez won't have the same value then that he does now.

 

[Cavsfan1985]

I think a big part of the offseason is going to hinge on what Francona does. If he comes back, I think you have to try and patch together a team that can make a run at the playoffs and hope you get lucky. We have the pitching & I have to believe you can at-least make our outfield league average by trading Lindor.

But it is hard to know what they will do if the Budget is the biggest issue.

 

[Cavsfan1985]

I don’t think their is anyway you trade Bieber. We have 4 years of control for a 25 year old pitcher about to win the CY Young. I am not even sure what return you could get that would make the trade worth while. Also from a pure marketing standpoint he is loved, and I think a lot of fans would be turned off even more of a guy like him is moved. If anything he is the type of guy you try to get to sign an extension now to cover the arbitration years and maybe the 1st year of FA for him.