80’s and 90’s WWF (or WCW) I guess

[Sebastian]

You know your wrestling history. It brings a tear to my eye really.

The other major problem from that ill-fated Backlund/Nash title switch is that Nash got over in the first place by being a bad ass heel, in particular by absolutely dominating the 1994 Royal Rumble then later winning the IC belt and tag titles with Shawn.

But then inexplicably and immediately upon putting the belt on him, they had Nash in a friggin Santa hat singing I Wish You a Merry Christmas at Titan Tower to the WWF employees like some smiling babyface goof. The fans didn't want it and Nash didn't have any experience at the time as a babyface - on top of the fact that frankly it's really hard in any era to get over as a babyface when you're 6'10" 300 lbs - and the whole thing was a gigantic fuckling bust.

Bob Backlund probably could have wrestled up until 2010....no joke. Ive seen him a few times at Indy events or signings and he always looked to be in incredible shape. Not just big, or lean, but genuinely fit. Its wild that he went away at a time where his crazy gimmick could have thrived in going into the late 90s.

Also, HBK is the in ring goat. Fuck Flair & fuck Bret.

Bret Hart mentions Bob in his Crazy Bob period as being a true class act:

"This new Crazy Bob was beginning to get over... In the dressing room, Bob continued to be the picture of class. He often had his face buried in huge books about politics, or he'd be working out, in push-up position, relentlessly using an [ab-roller]... My feelings about Bob getting the Belt had completely changed. He was trying so hard... "

Hart continues on the title switch with Diesel and his failure as a champion:

"I felt kind of bad for Bob when Vince told me that he'd only be champion for three days and then drop the belt to Diesel... I suggested to [Vince] that he keep the belt on Bob-there was plenty of time for Diesel to make it to the top- but his mind was made up... Since taking the belt, Diesel had proven he didn't have enough experience... Vince told me Diesel wasn't cutting it as champion, making the excuse that it was because of his elbow. But I'd always thought that Diesel was as good as dead after he worked with Shawn in Wrestlemania X..."

Finally, Bret mentions Vince's thoughts as WCW overtook WWF in the ratings:

"I was a guest announcer for Diesel's match with Davey, and we got into a pie-face pushing kind of thing while I was at the announcers table. Diesel got no help from the Canadian audience, and the match bombed badly enough that Vince hurled his headset down in disgust and hissed "Horrible!" It was around this time that WCW accomplished the unthinkable by beating Vince in the ratings, which only made things seem that much worse."

 

[Sebastian]

You know your wrestling history. It brings a tear to my eye really.

The other major problem from that ill-fated Backlund/Nash title switch is that Nash got over in the first place by being a bad ass heel, in particular by absolutely dominating the 1994 Royal Rumble then later winning the IC belt and tag titles with Shawn.

But then inexplicably and immediately upon putting the belt on him, they had Nash in a friggin Santa hat singing I Wish You a Merry Christmas at Titan Tower to the WWF employees like some smiling babyface goof. The fans didn't want it and Nash didn't have any experience at the time as a babyface - on top of the fact that frankly it's really hard in any era to get over as a babyface when you're 6'10" 300 lbs - and the whole thing was a gigantic fuckling bust.

Nice reference!

I am really into that WWF Golden Period of 1985-1993.

I still watched as a kid into 1995, but it was so bad I stopped watching. Diesel was a terrible champion and I simply grew out of wrestling in part due to him.

For me, that Golden Age was fantastic. I think the Attitude Era was good, but it can't have the same appeal to me because I was no longer a mark.

WWE had some outstanding top card talent between 1997-2005, but I felt what really made the 88-93 period so special was the strength of the WWF's Midcard, and its Tag Division.

If you look at the Midcard by 1990-1992 it was really something. When you have so much depth that you have such well-known names and workers at the top of the Midcard, like Bret Hart, Curt Hennig, Ted Dibiase, Mike Rotunda, Big Bossman, Kerry von Erich, Jacques Rougeau, Roddy Piper, and even have the likes of Rick Martel and Tito Santana at the bottom of the Midcard, you have talent. That 1992 Royal Rumble was almost from top to bottom nothing but superstars.

And the Tag Division in early 1992 was probably the best it would get: LOD, Money Inc., Natural Disasters, Rockers, Nasty Boys, Bushwackers, Owen Hart and Koko as High Energy. An embarrassment of riches.

It made the Tag and IC titles really matter. Something that diminished as time went by when singles match-ups kept winning the tag titles, and the IC became an after thought because Vince no longer needed to distinguish between the big brick-house types, and the smaller athletic guys.

 

[Mr. Orange]

Nice reference!

I am really into that WWF Golden Period of 1985-1993.

I still watched as a kid into 1995, but it was so bad I stopped watching. Diesel was a terrible champion and I simply grew out of wrestling in part due to him.

For me, that Golden Age was fantastic. I think the Attitude Era was good, but it can't have the same appeal to me because I was no longer a mark.

WWE had some outstanding top card talent between 1997-2005, but I felt what really made the 88-93 period so special was the strength of the WWF's Midcard, and its Tag Division.

If you look at the Midcard by 1990-1992 it was really something. When you have so much depth that you have such well-known names and workers at the top of the Midcard, like Bret Hart, Curt Hennig, Ted Dibiase, Mike Rotunda, Big Bossman, Kerry von Erich, Jacques Rougeau, Roddy Piper, and even have the likes of Rick Martel and Tito Santana at the bottom of the Midcard, you have talent. That 1992 Royal Rumble was almost from top to bottom nothing but superstars.

And the Tag Division in early 1992 was probably the best it would get: LOD, Money Inc., Natural Disasters, Rockers, Nasty Boys, Bushwackers, Owen Hart and Koko as High Energy. An embarrassment of riches.

It made the Tag and IC titles really matter. Something that diminished as time went by when singles match-ups kept winning the tag titles, and the IC became an after thought because Vince no longer needed to distinguish between the big brick-house types, and the smaller athletic guys.

1991-1992 was right after the steroid scandal and Vince wanted to go with less body builder types. Flair was unhappy at WCW so Vince brought him in to be champ but, according to Flair he got an inner ear problem during his title run and just couldn’t perform so he went to Vince who agreed to have Flair drop the strap to Brett.

But…Vince loves big, and he thought Diesel could be his new Hogan. Pre nWo, the anti hero had not caught on fully so he tried to baby face him. Bad idea.

I stopped watching a bit during the Diesel run. He was boring. But the next few years of the Brett/Yoko/HBK was pretty good as they were all good workers. Enter Steve Austin in 96 and we all know what happened. But don’t forget that the nWo was eating from 95-97. Hollywood Hogan made the anti hero cool. He’s always the number 1 guy in the history books.

The 92 Rumble is on YouTube. Great cast of “characters” in that.

 

[Amherstcavsfan]

Bret Hart mentions Bob in his Crazy Bob period as being a true class act:

"This new Crazy Bob was beginning to get over... In the dressing room, Bob continued to be the picture of class. He often had his face buried in huge books about politics, or he'd be working out, in push-up position, relentlessly using an [ab-roller]... My feelings about Bob getting the Belt had completely changed. He was trying so hard... "

Hart continues on the title switch with Diesel and his failure as a champion:

"I felt kind of bad for Bob when Vince told me that he'd only be champion for three days and then drop the belt to Diesel... I suggested to [Vince] that he keep the belt on Bob-there was plenty of time for Diesel to make it to the top- but his mind was made up... Since taking the belt, Diesel had proven he didn't have enough experience... Vince told me Diesel wasn't cutting it as champion, making the excuse that it was because of his elbow. But I'd always thought that Diesel was as good as dead after he worked with Shawn in Wrestlemania X..."

Finally, Bret mentions Vince's thoughts as WCW overtook WWF in the ratings:

"I was a guest announcer for Diesel's match with Davey, and we got into a pie-face pushing kind of thing while I was at the announcers table. Diesel got no help from the Canadian audience, and the match bombed badly enough that Vince hurled his headset down in disgust and hissed "Horrible!" It was around this time that WCW accomplished the unthinkable by beating Vince in the ratings, which only made things seem that much worse."

Ah, the infamous "Great White North" PPV.

If you've seen it, you'd know exactly why Vince threw down his headset at the end. It was one of the worst PPVs of all time, and it's not even close.

 

[Sebastian]

1991-1992 was right after the steroid scandal and Vince wanted to go with less body builder types. Flair was unhappy at WCW so Vince brought him in to be champ but, according to Flair he got an inner ear problem during his title run and just couldn’t perform so he went to Vince who agreed to have Flair drop the strap to Brett.

But…Vince loves big, and he thought Diesel could be his new Hogan. Pre nWo, the anti hero had not caught on fully so he tried to baby face him. Bad idea.

I stopped watching a bit during the Diesel run. He was boring. But the next few years of the Brett/Yoko/HBK was pretty good as they were all good workers. Enter Steve Austin in 96 and we all know what happened. But don’t forget that the nWo was eating from 95-97. Hollywood Hogan made the anti hero cool. He’s always the number 1 guy in the history books.

The 92 Rumble is on YouTube. Great cast of “characters” in that.

I will go to my grave loving gimmicks.

I don't care how preposterous the idea of a wrestling Taxman, Voodoo Priest or venal, cattle-prod wielding Mountie are.

 

[Sebastian]

Adding to the list of guys with podcasts, Ted DiBiase.

https://www.youtube.com/@EverybodysGotAPod/videos

 

[Mr. Orange]

I will go to my grave loving gimmicks.

I don't care how preposterous the idea of a wrestling Taxman, Voodoo Priest or venal, cattle-prod wielding Mountie are.

The gimmicks part is so ridiculous in hindsight. Even if I worked as a repossession man or dentist or tax accountant in my day job, why would I dress that way for my side job wrestling match?

They were great for kids and teens of course. And that was great for the WWE vs the other territories.

 

[Sebastian]

The gimmicks part is so ridiculous in hindsight. Even if I worked as a repossession man or dentist or tax accountant in my day job, why would I dress that way for my side job wrestling match?

They were great for kids and teens of course. And that was great for the WWE vs the other territories.

It is!

And not all, or even most worked.

I think @RchfldCavRaised and I talked about how the gimmick of IRS really shouldn't have worked. It should have been as cringe as Dr. Yankem or Papa Shango.

But, in the hands of a talented worker it does work. I don't think only but a few people other than Rotunda could have made it work.

Vince was really good at assigning the right gimmick most of the time. Imagine someone else as the Undertaker for example.

Repo Man was simply wonderful. Barry Darsow had so much fun with that.

 

[Mr. Orange]

It is!

And not all, or even most worked.

I think @RchfldCavRaised and I talked about how the gimmick of IRS really shouldn't have worked. It should have been as cringe as Dr. Yankem or Papa Shango.

But, in the hands of a talented worker it does work. I don't think only but a few people other than Rotunda could have made it work.

Vince was really good at assigning the right gimmick most of the time. Imagine someone else as the Undertaker for example.

Repo Man was simply wonderful. Barry Darsow had so much fun with that.

100% on Taker. Doink is a good example of this. There is a dark side of the ring about Matt Bourne. They pretty much said that the gimmick wouldn’t have worked without him in the suit first.

So glad I was able to experience peak wrestling. What a time. I remember going to Summer Slam 96 at Gund Arena. Right at the transition from the gimmick era to the attitude era. First ever boiler room match w Taker and Mankind. HBK and Vader headlined. And I believe Stone Cold wrestled a dark match to open it, just after his Kimg of the Ring win, but I really didn’t know who he was. Good stuff!

 

[Sebastian]

100% on Taker. Doink is a good example of this. There is a dark side of the ring about Matt Bourne. They pretty much said that the gimmick wouldn’t have worked without him in the suit first.

So glad I was able to experience peak wrestling. What a time. I remember going to Summer Slam 96 at Gund Arena. Right at the transition from the gimmick era to the attitude era. First ever boiler room match w Taker and Mankind. HBK and Vader headlined. And I believe Stone Cold wrestled a dark match to open it, just after his Kimg of the Ring win, but I really didn’t know who he was. Good stuff!

I think the success of some of the gimmicks was also proportional to the amount of out of the ring work they did in introducing characters.

Up until 1993 or so, I always recalled that they spent a good month or two introducing a new gimmick character. They spent time in Miami with Razor. They did some shots with Papa Shango.

Million Dollar Man's vignettes were perhaps the most memorable. It really well established him.

Although Mr. Perfect* wasn't really a gimmick per se in terms of vocation, his montages were very memorable.

They gave IRS** a really heavy push in mid-1991 with both his tax tips and the talk-show thing they did. The tax tips continued through his run into 1995.

Conversely sometimes less was better as @RchfldCavRaised has often said. Doink was introduced slowly over a month or two in 1992(?) and he was just a clown doing clown things at TV tapings in the background.

Undertaker was a complete surprise and no one saw him until Million Dollar Man unleashed him at 1990 Survivor Series. Brother Love was his manager and he was billed as "Kane the Undertaker" until the character stabilized with Paul Bearer as his manager once they brought William Moody in from WCW in the spring of 1991.





* Incidentally, even in the late 80s Vince's poaching game was still on-point. Luring Hennig away from AWA all but killed that territory. Curt Hennig was the AWA's last big young face Champion holding their Heavyweight title twice for 353 days. He lost the title to Jerry Lawler as he left the promotion. Hennig was the last up and coming talent to hold their title and from then out it was held by wrestlers of the previous generation in the latter halves of their career. AWA limped along with the rest of the NWA, but didn't join with the NWA's transformation into WCW and was cooked by 1991.

** Mike Rotunda had been the workhorse of NWA/WCW's upper-Midcard between 1987-1990 with the Varsity Club, one of the best heel teams of the era with Rick Steiner and then Dr. Death Steve Williams and Dan Spivey, managed by Kevin Sullivan, winning the NWA US Tag Title a couple times, and then the NWA World Tag titles beating the Road Warriors. Rotunda was also a three time NWA/WCW TV Champion, having feuds with Sting, Lex Luger and the Steiners. Rotunda was also gaining some traction with his rebrand as Michael Wallstreet, managed by Alexandra York, forming the York Foundation, using computer driven analytics to determine the best way to win matches within a predicted time. It was an interesting gimmick, and Vince undoubtedly lifted elements of it when he created the IRS gimmick.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

It is!

And not all, or even most worked.

I think @RchfldCavRaised and I talked about how the gimmick of IRS really shouldn't have worked. It should have been as cringe as Dr. Yankem or Papa Shango.

But, in the hands of a talented worker it does work. I don't think only but a few people other than Rotunda could have made it work.

Vince was really good at assigning the right gimmick most of the time. Imagine someone else as the Undertaker for example.

Repo Man was simply wonderful. Barry Darsow had so much fun with that.

On the flip side, I give you....

 

[Sebastian]

On the flip side, I give you....

I don't know how he conned Vince into over 400 days as IC Champion.

He was the definition of mediocre.

His best match was when Warrior rolled him up in 30 seconds.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I don't know how he conned Vince into over 400 days as IC Champion.

He was the definition of mediocre.

His best match was when Warrior rolled him up in 30 seconds.

I think everyone just hated him so much they tuned in hoping he'd lose. Vince brought him in to be a face, but the fans said otherwise. lol.

 

[Sebastian]

Jake the Snake on nearly being murdered by Hawk over a rib.

 

[Sebastian]

Dusty Rhodes was simply fantastic. Well past his prime by the time he came to the WWF.

But he was always entertaining.