Browns stadium thread: To dome or not to dome

[Mr. Orange]

People drive to BFE Green Bay to watch football. They will drive to Brook Park.

 

[inliner311]

I think the post office site with a dome is the best solution if possible. Eastsiders hate driving to the west side and vise versa. Downtown is like neutral ground that isn't a bad drive for most.

The rapid from the east side to the airport is like an hour+ ride because you have to switch trains downtown. The blue and green lines are packed on game day especially after the game. To have to transfer to another train and be on it for an hour would be brutal.

I think brookpark wouldn't be this prime development opportunity even if they invest a ton into it. Again eastsiders don't want to make that drive so you cut out half of the metro areas population as potential customers to whatever is there. Eastsiders will go for football games and maybe certain concerts but they won't go shopping or hit it up on the weekends for entertainment.

 

[southernflyer]

Say what you want about the millions of parking garages and whatever, it's an obnoxious walk to the stadium, especially in shitty weather.

There was an article in one of the business blogs about the amount of downtown parking garages that were built between the 60s-80s that are reaching the end of their life cycle for safety due to age or maintenance neglect. A few are condemned/closed and in process of being torn down like the one recently on Huron Road. With a greater number of WFH employees, they most likely won't be replaced. None of Cleveland, Cincy or Columbus have regular inspection intervals for parking garages except for yearly elevator inspections.

 

[inliner311]

A dome/village-like development is 100% better downtown than in any suburb. Regardless of how people feel about getting to the stadium. The best spot to have the stadium is downtown. The easiest spot to have the stadium for access and transportation is downtown.

That spot where the post office sits is downtown and development around that area puts the new stadium walking distance from Progressive Field and Rocket Mortgage.

A dome-village in Brook Park isn't going to attract people as consistently as a downtown dome-village.

One thing I've always thought that would be a big attraction for Cleveland with how are winters are, is a enclosed entertainment center downtown. Like you can bar hop from place to place without going in the cold. I always thought that's what Gilbert should have try to transform tower city into.

If the Haslams want to make a dome and entertainment center, I think it could be a winning formula to make some interconnected indoor area with outdoor decks for the summer. It could be the place to go if they put it downtown and convince the RTA to run 24 hours or at least an hour or two after bars close on the weekends. The option to get dropped off if it's at the post office site by rail then get food and drinks before going to a guardians game makes a lot of sense.

 

[2 For The Brew]

We absolutely agree on the bolded. Call this: sins of our great great grandfathers. While Indianapolis and Pittsburgh annexed small suburbs into the city from the Civil War industrialization boom through The Great Depression, Cleveland chose not to do it.

Pittsburgh was only able to annex the City of Allegheny because the State of Pennsylvania changed state law to allow annexation if the combined vote in both acquiring and acquired (terminated) cities approved. Previously a majority of both separately was required. Allegheny sued but Supreme Court rules cities were creations of the State government and had no rights, including continued existence.

City of Philadelphia was relatively small until the mid 19th Century (for locals it was just the part now known as “Center City”). The City and County of Philadelphia then became identical (thus wiping out some of the largest cities in the nation which are now Philly neighborhood). There are four “collar counties“ that constitute the burbs but zero chance they’d ever be annexed because those counties would fight it and the rest of the State distrusts Philadelphia and would never vote to make it bigger.

So the State of Ohio could facilitate a consolidation. Again, not sure the votes exist for that.

 

[B Mac]

I think the post office site with a dome is the best solution if possible. Eastsiders hate driving to the west side and vise versa. Downtown is like neutral ground that isn't a bad drive for most.

The rapid from the east side to the airport is like an hour+ ride because you have to switch trains downtown. The blue and green lines are packed on game day especially after the game. To have to transfer to another train and be on it for an hour would be brutal.

I think brookpark wouldn't be this prime development opportunity even if they invest a ton into it. Again eastsiders don't want to make that drive so you cut out half of the metro areas population as potential customers to whatever is there. Eastsiders will go for football games and maybe certain concerts but they won't go shopping or hit it up on the weekends for entertainment.

Great post. I keep cringing when people mention the RTA lines to Brook Park and how convenient they would be. Has anyone who lists that as a perk ever actually ridden the RTA? Even more importantly, have they rode on it on game day to watch the Browns?

I only once in my life took the RTA in from the east side to a game because one of my east side buddies was very convincing on the ease of beating traffic and saving from parking fees. It was brutal. Every stop took much longer than normal as the car kept getting more and more packed. It took damn near an hour to finally get to the stadium.

Now imagine someone from the east side not only having to make that trip downtown, but then having to transfer to get out to the airport. It would add hours on to your trip, especially due to the wait time to get home.

The RTA is poorly setup for massive crowds like that and significantly less convenient than driving around a couple blocks to find a decent parking spot to chug a couple beers in before walking to the game.

With that said, I’ve rode the RTA into the city from south of the city many times to Guardians and Cavs games. That has always been a pretty easy and “quick” trip. It’s still faster to just drive it, but it’s still a significantly better experience than trying to go from East to West or vice versa.

 

[inliner311]

Great post. I keep cringing when people mention the RTA lines to Brook Park and how convenient they would be. Has anyone who lists that as a perk ever actually ridden the RTA? Even more importantly, have they rode on it on game day to watch the Browns?

I only once in my life took the RTA in from the east side to a game because one of my east side buddies was very convincing on the ease of beating traffic and saving from parking fees. It was brutal. Every stop took much longer than normal as the car kept getting more and more packed. It took damn near an hour to finally get to the stadium.

Now imagine someone from the east side not only having to make that trip downtown, but then having to transfer to get out to the airport. It would add hours on to your trip, especially due to the wait time to get home.

The RTA is poorly setup for massive crowds like that and significantly less convenient than driving around a couple blocks to find a decent parking spot to chug a couple beers in before walking to the game.

With that said, I’ve rode the RTA into the city from south of the city many times to Guardians and Cavs games. That has always been a pretty easy and “quick” trip. It’s still faster to just drive it, but it’s still a significantly better experience than trying to go from East to West or vice versa.

The trains also move real slow when full and it becomes standing only at a point.

Also the trains become inconsistent after the initial wave from the stadium after the game. I can't imagine them trying to 8-10 trains at tower city to take the wave of people coming from brookpark to transfer to get on the blue or green line.

The blue and green are convenient though if you going to the muni lot to tailgate then are willing to walk from the stadium to get food then go to tower city after to catch the train. I'm always worried in lingering downtown too long after Cavs or Guardians night games though, you never know when RTA will move back to the normal schedule and you have to make the last train of the night.

 

[buzzdog]

Great post. I keep cringing when people mention the RTA lines to Brook Park and how convenient they would be. Has anyone who lists that as a perk ever actually ridden the RTA? Even more importantly, have they rode on it on game day to watch the Browns?

I only once in my life took the RTA in from the east side to a game because one of my east side buddies was very convincing on the ease of beating traffic and saving from parking fees. It was brutal. Every stop took much longer than normal as the car kept getting more and more packed. It took damn near an hour to finally get to the stadium.

Now imagine someone from the east side not only having to make that trip downtown, but then having to transfer to get out to the airport. It would add hours on to your trip, especially due to the wait time to get home.

The RTA is poorly setup for massive crowds like that and significantly less convenient than driving around a couple blocks to find a decent parking spot to chug a couple beers in before walking to the game.

With that said, I’ve rode the RTA into the city from south of the city many times to Guardians and Cavs games. That has always been a pretty easy and “quick” trip. It’s still faster to just drive it, but it’s still a significantly better experience than trying to go from East to West or vice versa.

I rode the RTA from the airport into the city for the 2016 parade. It was the only way to get into the city. It worked to get me in and out, that's about all I'll say.

Clearly, whatever they do, the rail system needs a significant upgrade.

 

[2 For The Brew]

Sixers are proposing a massive investment in Center City to move from Wells Fargo to Market East. It’s an area that’s ripe for redevelopment and right on a major train, trolley and subway line hub that can receive masses of people from all over the region. But it’s adjacent to Chinatown and somewhat controversial.

Stadium deals are almost never easy.

I think for baseball and basketball it’s better to be centrally located and / or in a major entertainment area because of the number of games. Football - it really doesn’t matter, nine games on average. The owner who relocated to Baltimore was looking at Streetsboro which is a really shitty location but nine games a year makes it only partially insane.

I don’t think a football stadium alone would do shit for Brook Park. If I was a City of Cleveland father I’d let the burbs have the Browns and keep the team formerly known as the Indians and the Cavaliers. Tailgates in the Muny lot don’t exactly make downtown merchants rich.

 

[2 For The Brew]

I rode the RTA from the airport into the city for the 2016 parade. It was the only way to get into the city. It worked to get me in and out, that's about all I'll say.

Clearly, whatever they do, the rail system needs a significant upgrade.

Investment in rail is an even more dubious use of money than stadiums. Very rare to get significant passengers for new service. Most cities do well just to maintain what service they have.

Expansion at the margins sometimes works. Even that is very costly.

 

[Amherstcavsfan]

Investment in rail is an even more dubious use of money than stadiums. Very rare to get significant passengers for new service. Most cities do well just to maintain what service they have.

Expansion at the margins sometimes works. Even that is very costly.

The problem is that when you're downtown, the traffic is brutal. Whoever designed the road system in Cleveland is one of the biggest idiots who ever lived. It's like they wanted all the complexity of New York City yet without the charm. It's a nightmare. Go to any big city in the American Midwest and tell me Cleveland doesn't have the worst infrastructure of all of these cities.

Even Detroit, which I find a hell hole to drive in, is better than Cleveland when you get downtown. It's pathetic we allowed this city to be built like it has been built.

 

[sportscoach]

Investment in rail is an even more dubious use of money than stadiums. Very rare to get significant passengers for new service. Most cities do well just to maintain what service they have.

Expansion at the margins sometimes works. Even that is very costly.

We need to look at places in like Japan in a sense and have a setup that's actually way better getting around without a car... But that would take time and money and I doubt anyone is wiling to actually do that...

 

[2 For The Brew]

The problem is that when you're downtown, the traffic is brutal. Whoever designed the road system in Cleveland is one of the biggest idiots who ever lived. It's like they wanted all the complexity of New York City yet without the charm. It's a nightmare. Go to any big city in the American Midwest and tell me Cleveland doesn't have the worst infrastructure of all of these cities.

Even Detroit, which I find a hell hole to drive in, is better than Cleveland when you get downtown. It's pathetic we allowed this city to be built like it has been built.

That’s what happens when a guy from Connecticut arrives, designs your city and then goes home.

You think Cleveland’s bad? Try traveling anywhere in Connecticut.

 

[2 For The Brew]

We need to look at places in like Japan in a sense and have a setup that's actually way better getting around without a car... But that would take time and money and I doubt anyone is wiling to actually do that...

We’ve only got one high speed rail line in the entire country and it stinks. Most of it isn’t high speed, it’s shared with freight in parts so the cars are built like battleships instead of lightweight.

Zero chance we could get right of ways to build anything like trains elsewhere in the world unless we had a ruthless developer with plenary powers to override all local, environmental and economic considerations to blast new rail lines through existing property so throughly it would make Robert Moses blush. People are still pissed the Cross Bronx Expressway wrecked neighborhoods; imagine new rail lines tearing through neighborhoods in Westchester County and pissing off Rachel Maddow fans. I’d risk pissing off all five New York families before doing something suicidal like riling up NIMBYS and BANANAS (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anybody).

Originally there were plans for an interstate going right through Shaker Heights. That … did not end well. Check out the path of I-77 between Richfield and Akron. It makes a WIDE detour west to avoid Fairlawn.

I love trains and have used them in Europe and the East Coast when I lived / worked there but there just isn’t feasible room for right of ways now and we’re quite spread out in most of the country.

 

[eChameleon]

I will say the one time the RTA green line was replaced by busses was a blast riding back to the green road station because it was standing room only and that driver was flying around those corners so you could just hang on the overhead bars and let the forces of nature swing you from side to side.