Cleveland Guardians Offseason Discussion 2021-22

[AZ_]

Your tradition of shilling and browbeating fans who don't want their team mired in austerity is boring and unoriginal.

Personally, I'd hate to be the person who has to talk themselves into Yan Gomes being the separating factor between real fans attempting to beat "austerity," and the browbeaters.

Seems like mental gymnastics which just aren't worth the effort.

 

[DJTJ]

Every team has devastating injuries. The 2021 World Series champions lost their best player, yet still went on a run in part because ownership bankrolled AA's aggressive deadline acquisitions--Soler, Rosario, Duvall and Joc.

Spending $ doesn't equate to success, but rolling out a $50 million payroll really narrows a team's margin for error.

When the Braves made the trades, there was overwhelmingly negative feedback on the increase of payroll.

It was open season about spending when you were out of it. Hindsight is always 20/20- had this team been in the same position, made similar trades, this board would be upset.

Can’t win every person over, and they don’t need to.

 

[Criznit]

The forced, rehearsed "outrage" about a lack of activity in free agency is boring and unoriginal.

In a vacuum, you are correct. However, this latest "outrage" started out with a comment regarding a lack of quality options at Catcher remaining in free agency specifically (at least for me). How the Guardians address/deal with this is (adding a catcher) is a legitimate talking point.

 

[petes999]

In reality, this will be a long 3 months of back and forth bickering of if Cleveland is trying to win this year or not. Let's be frank, they were not going to spend money this early in FA process. It is not their style whether they have money or not.

For some of us, the top 2-3 FA catchers went quickly in Perez, Gomes and Pina. As the catcher market wasn't great to begin with, there really isn't much of anything left that will be an upgrade over Leon unless we get excited about Ramos. A few teams may become possible trade partners like Toronto yet do their needs and our needs match up? Are we really going to trade them an immediate need for their infield or pitching staff for one of their catchers surplus? Who do we have that will have immediate impact for a Kirk other than a Rosario or Civale (a bit more on our end than needed, but in ballpark)? However, you get the jist that their need is to win and our strength is our prospects, not giving up someone who can help us win while creating a hole somewhere else. A trade with Pittsburgh would have been nice if we were quicker to the draw. I also guess Alfaro defense wasn't good enough for them either as he would have cost nothing other than a roster space and some $$.

And, even if we do get a catcher from some other team, we are left with a few holes in the outfield (somewhere I would have traded a Rosario for a stud everyday outfielder vs a catcher that is more hit than defense). Maybe when free agency opens back up, we may land one of the remaining candidates. However, I doubt Castellanos, Bryant, Schwarber nor Conforto are in our price range. Thus, maybe a Pham, McCutchen or Rosario will be left looking for a quick contract in weeks before ST. Nice but not a wow .... and it would still be a payroll closer to $60 million than $70-$80 that others are hopeful for.

In reality, no one really knows what the target payroll will be and will FO do it for only players that get us to WS range or bank some savings in 2022 for 2023. Waiting a year, we see what we have in Arias, Jones, Freeman, Kwan, Palacios, Gimenez and Valera. This way a mid-size FA enhances our chances versus needing an overpaid Castellanos type this year to carry us with Ramirez and Bieber to post season.

I still don't get the payroll issue. I get that at $80-90 million pre-Covid, they were willing to spend $20 on Lindor (if $10 or so was deferred). Yet, Covid devastated the cash reserves (as his $$$ is invested in the team and revenue sharing plummeted). In addition, buying out a small share of Sherman's stake that offseason didn't help either. Even if Dolan finds a minority owner, it doesn't add $$$ for payroll (as initial buy-in from new part-owner goes to Sherman's remaining share held in trust - and paid to Sherman). Only when Dolan sells some of his current share will money come in to supplement additional payroll that we are hoping for. And, let's be honest, even if FO says they want to spend $70-$80 million this year and our hope is $100 million comes into being a floor, Dolan isn't going to authorize new money being spent until he sees what the new CBA will do to revenue sharing that he needs to fund future payroll.

So for the next 2-3 months, we can guess what their intentions are but we really do not know until we see it to believe it.

 

[CDAV45]

I fail to understand how one can come to the determination that the Guardians didn't make a play for Gomes. Everyone had to know he would be in demand because the FA C lineup wasn't very deep and numerous teams need one. I mentioned a while back that a bidding war for FA isn't Cleveland's "thing". They'll just bow out and go a different direction. The same thing will be happening for any FA bats remaining once a new agreement is reached and the DH is universal. The path to improving the lineup for the Guardians is via trade, just like it pretty much has been for the last 2 decades. The farm being a strength again and ready to promote some guys by 2023 will help fill most of our needs.

 

[BMAN]

Every team has devastating injuries. The 2021 World Series champions lost their best player, yet still went on a run in part because ownership bankrolled AA's aggressive deadline acquisitions--Soler, Rosario, Duvall and Joc.

Spending $ doesn't equate to success, but rolling out a $50 million payroll really narrows a team's margin for error.

We literally lost our top 3 starters. No one survives that.

 

[Gson]

In a vacuum, you are correct. However, this latest "outrage" started out with a comment regarding a lack of quality options at Catcher remaining in free agency specifically (at least for me). How the Guardians address/deal with this is (adding a catcher) is a legitimate talking point.

Perhaps the best trading partner to acquire a catcher might be the St Louis Cardinals.. There are several points that make sense for this:

1. Yadier Molina on a one year $ 10 MM contract as the primary catcher & Andrew Knizner as his back up
2. The Cardinals have both corner infield spots filled, including Nolan Arenado at 3B.. making JRam unneeded
3. The Cardinals are in perpetual need for a slick fielding middle infielder who can hit now and into the future
4. The Cardinals biggest need is pitching.. both relievers and starters..

The Cardinals have a pair of pre-arbitration OF'er's in Lars Nootbaar OF, Tommy Edman Inf/RF & some firepower in Nolan Gorman 3B/2B/LF & a future everyday starting catcher in Ivan Herrera. There are plenty of complimentary pieces (genesis cabrera, harrison bader, alex reyes, others) that would fit nicely into a Guardians uniform..

For the Guardians.. the Cardinals would want Bieber.. but settle for Plesac: a bona fide MOR SP.. Additionally, Andres Gimenez would fit nicely there.. so would Tyler Freeman, Logan S Allen, Bracho, Jose Tena and others. There could be a small deal or a large/involved deal between the two clubs.. or even a third team given the depth of middle infielders the Guardians have that would interest these clubs..

example..

Cincinnati gets: Andres Gimenez and Matt Liberatore
St Louis gets: Tyler Mahle, Tanner Burns and Zach Plesac
Cleveland gets: Nick Senzel, Michael McGreevy, Ivan Herrera and Josh Baez

While there are endless permutations that can be imagined (and that's all this is at this point, an imaginary deal).. the idea that a catcher that is ready to compete for a spot in a major league lineup right now can be had..for the right deal. Ivan Herrera is at that level. In this example.. the Reds solve their SS problem and get another TOR SP (to go with Lodolo and Greene) for their 2023-25 window of contention. The Cardinals pitching staff gets two SP's with 2 and 4 years of control, respectively, and a future SP by trading first round picks with the Guardians. The Guardians get their catcher.. get Shane Bieber's alumnus-mate & get two OF'ers (both RHH's), one now and one in the future...

-No JRam..
-No prospects that are leaning toward being untouchable

Who says no? What say you?

 

[CDAV45]

The forced, rehearsed "outrage" about a lack of activity in free agency is boring and unoriginal.

I have to say that I was hoping they'd sign someone like Garcia and then trade for Happ. Not extremely lofty standards by any means. Especially when most of us believe that they would be significantly increasing payroll. I'm certainly not salty about it in the slightest. In fact, I think I'm ready to give it another season and see what the farm can provide us in 22. I don't want my favorite team to contribute to the outrageous and continuously increasing costs of FA. For me, building a winner like their doing is genuine, and I f'n appreciate the shit out of that.

 

[Criznit]

It seemed like acquiring Alfaro was a no brainer to me. Super cheap, lots of warts and definitely a better option on the whole when compared to Leon.

 

[Kevalier]

It seemed like acquiring Alfaro was a no brainer to me. Super cheap, lots of warts and definitely a better option on the whole when compared to Leon.

Until the Guardians front office pulls off a trade for Ketel Marte, where Carson Kelly is included.

(Please let me dream.)

 

[CDAV45]

Perhaps the best trading partner to acquire a catcher might be the St Louis Cardinals.. There are several points that make sense for this:

1. Yadier Molina on a one year $ 10 MM contract as the primary catcher & Andrew Knizner as his back up
2. The Cardinals have both corner infield spots filled, including Nolan Arenado at 3B.. making JRam unneeded
3. The Cardinals are in perpetual need for a slick fielding middle infielder who can hit now and into the future
4. The Cardinals biggest need is pitching.. both relievers and starters..

The Cardinals have a pair of pre-arbitration OF'er's in Lars Nootbaar OF, Tommy Edman Inf/RF & some firepower in Nolan Gorman 3B/2B/LF & a future everyday starting catcher in Ivan Herrera. There are plenty of complimentary pieces (genesis cabrera, harrison bader, alex reyes, others) that would fit nicely into a Guardians uniform..

For the Guardians.. the Cardinals would want Bieber.. but settle for Plesac: a bona fide MOR SP.. Additionally, Andres Gimenez would fit nicely there.. so would Tyler Freeman, Logan S Allen, Bracho, Jose Tena and others. There could be a small deal or a large/involved deal between the two clubs.. or even a third team given the depth of middle infielders the Guardians have that would interest these clubs..

example..

Cincinnati gets: Andres Gimenez and Matt Liberatore
St Louis gets: Tyler Mahle, Tanner Burns and Zach Plesac
Cleveland gets: Nick Senzel, Michael McGreevy, Ivan Herrera and Josh Baez

While there are endless permutations that can be imagined (and that's all this is at this point, an imaginary deal).. the idea that a catcher that is ready to compete for a spot in a major league lineup right now can be had..for the right deal. Ivan Herrera is at that level. In this example.. the Reds solve their SS problem and get another TOR SP (to go with Lodolo and Greene) for their 2023-25 window of contention. The Cardinals pitching staff gets two SP's with 2 and 4 years of control, respectively, and a future SP by trading first round picks with the Guardians. The Guardians get their catcher.. get Shane Bieber's alumnus-mate & get two OF'ers (both RHH's), one now and one in the future...

-No JRam..
-No prospects that are leaning toward being untouchable

Who says no? What say you?

Atlanta and Toronto have C depth as well. Just don't ask about Kirk unless he's shed 40lbs.

EdMonix and me would probably get in a fist fight if we saw each other, but he mentioned the possibility of Mitch Garver and I think that was a very good idea.

I know it's not a popular idea around here, but if the FO thinks Sandy can work his magic with Sanchez then he might be a target.

Cut a deal with the Mets and get McCann and Vientos.

Kev mentioned getting Kelly along with Marte.

There are still options and if I had to guess, they didn't pursue Gomes aggressively because they already have a deal in place. Nothing these guys do is on a whim.

 

[Urban]

Every team has devastating injuries. The 2021 World Series champions lost their best player, yet still went on a run in part because ownership bankrolled AA's aggressive deadline acquisitions--Soler, Rosario, Duvall and Joc.

Spending $ doesn't equate to success, but rolling out a $50 million payroll really narrows a team's margin for error.

To add some context:

In total I think they spent less than $10m for those 4 guys. The Indians/Guardans FO has been aggressive at the trade deadline and more willing to spend money at the deadline when it made sense. For instance, they picked up the $4.2m Jay Bruce tab in 2017.

 

[petes999]

Perhaps the best trading partner to acquire a catcher might be the St Louis Cardinals.. There are several points that make sense for this:

1. Yadier Molina on a one year $ 10 MM contract as the primary catcher & Andrew Knizner as his back up
2. The Cardinals have both corner infield spots filled, including Nolan Arenado at 3B.. making JRam unneeded
3. The Cardinals are in perpetual need for a slick fielding middle infielder who can hit now and into the future
4. The Cardinals biggest need is pitching.. both relievers and starters..

The Cardinals have a pair of pre-arbitration OF'er's in Lars Nootbaar OF, Tommy Edman Inf/RF & some firepower in Nolan Gorman 3B/2B/LF & a future everyday starting catcher in Ivan Herrera. There are plenty of complimentary pieces (genesis cabrera, harrison bader, alex reyes, others) that would fit nicely into a Guardians uniform..

For the Guardians.. the Cardinals would want Bieber.. but settle for Plesac: a bona fide MOR SP.. Additionally, Andres Gimenez would fit nicely there.. so would Tyler Freeman, Logan S Allen, Bracho, Jose Tena and others. There could be a small deal or a large/involved deal between the two clubs.. or even a third team given the depth of middle infielders the Guardians have that would interest these clubs..

example..

Cincinnati gets: Andres Gimenez and Matt Liberatore
St Louis gets: Tyler Mahle, Tanner Burns and Zach Plesac
Cleveland gets: Nick Senzel, Michael McGreevy, Ivan Herrera and Josh Baez

While there are endless permutations that can be imagined (and that's all this is at this point, an imaginary deal).. the idea that a catcher that is ready to compete for a spot in a major league lineup right now can be had..for the right deal. Ivan Herrera is at that level. In this example.. the Reds solve their SS problem and get another TOR SP (to go with Lodolo and Greene) for their 2023-25 window of contention. The Cardinals pitching staff gets two SP's with 2 and 4 years of control, respectively, and a future SP by trading first round picks with the Guardians. The Guardians get their catcher.. get Shane Bieber's alumnus-mate & get two OF'ers (both RHH's), one now and one in the future...

-No JRam..
-No prospects that are leaning toward being untouchable

Who says no? What say you?

Not bad ... but note all twist and turns, you needed to do to get things to work. And, then Herrera isnt quite the perfect match for us either. He made it to AAA for 1 game and like Naylor struggled in hitting AA pitching but broke out of his struggle with great Sept. He may need a bit more work (maybe just ST and April/May) but a bit ahead of Naylor which we need.

 

[KluberSociety]

Hard to say how good they will be, but I feel confident that the 5 you listed will end up decent at least. I'd include Miller in there as well.

Of that list I think Arias is the most likely to disappoint, but he also has the upside to be the biggest offensive threat. He's a bigger kid and could outgrow SS. Fantastic glove and arm though.

As it stands right now with me, I hope Gimenez has a breakout season for a couple of reasons. It either makes one of those highly rated prospects available or one of those prospects pushes him out the door. Either way it's good when value is created.

I'm not impressed with Miller's glove to the point where I think of him as a MIF solution. Maybe at 2B but more of a fill-in similar to the Chang role last year. I don't think he's terrible with the glove, no, but when we have so many other options, a scenario where we're seeing Miller as an everyday 2B is one where the others have failed. Unless somehow his bat develops to the point where we actually want to get it in the lineup. Now I just don't see that being a likely case.

To describe what I see as lacking in his glove, it's a sort of agility, similar to watching someone like Jhonny out there. However Jhonny had a solid glove (he fielded the ball well) as well as a strong arm, so he compensated for it. I don't see Miller having surplus skills in these areas to compensate for it.

 

[rmacd]

I'm not impressed with Miller's glove to the point where I think of him as a MIF solution. Maybe at 2B but more of a fill-in similar to the Chang role last year. I don't think he's terrible with the glove, no, but when we have so many other options, a scenario where we're seeing Miller as an everyday 2B is one where the others have failed. Unless somehow his bat develops to the point where we actually want to get it in the lineup. Now I just don't see that being a likely case.

To describe what I see as lacking in his glove, it's a sort of agility, similar to watching someone like Jhonny out there. However Jhonny had a solid glove (he fielded the ball well) as well as a strong arm, so he compensated for it. I don't see Miller having surplus skills in these areas to compensate for it.

Agree on Millers glove work. Might be wrong but believe that is why he was rarely played on the left side of the infield.