Cleveland Guardians Offseason Discussion 2021-22

[CATS44]

It’s interesting how you extol Rosario’s hitting ability and then say a big issue in the lineup is the terrible team OBP (I agree that this is a huge issue). Rosario has a career OBP of .307, which is awful.

True to an extent.

But in the case of our outfield, there are outside options to vastly improve the situation immediately.

With Amed, the options are untried prospects, which are unlikely to make a significant immediate difference.

There is also the Citi Field effect, which I've mentioned several times.

Outside of Citi Field, statistically the worst hitting park in baseball, Ameds career OBP is over .330. Last year, once Tito stopped screwing around with him, his OBP was right at his career mark outside of Citi Field.

Average OBP was around .317 last year. If Amed is allowed to play SS full time...no multiple positions, no platooning...you can expect him to have an above average OBP with an OPS above .780.

While Amed is not an above average fielder, he is not the butcher fans make him out to be. His DRS in 2019, when he was allowed to play SS every day without interruption, was -3...and he had shown improvement every year.

After the break last season, Amed made three errors. He actually was pretty good after the break when he didn't have to worry about being moved.

I wouldn't cry if we moved him to 2B, because IMO Gimenez is the best SS we have, excepting maybe Rocchio in a few years. (Gimenez is another player highly under estimated here) But if a change is to be made, do it the first day of spring training, and stick to it. No more of this experimenting on the fly.

Amed was a far better prospect than anybody currently in the system, but everything that the Mets and Indians did with him was a hindrance to his development and his production.

 

[Steve_424]

We keep talking about moving Amed, but the FO already told him to concentrate on SS. Its past time that somebody decides to stop screwing him around and letting his do his thing.

Amed was bad at SS last year. He's been bad at SS his entire career. He's just not a good defensive shortstop.

I know what Antonetti said but I believe that to be FO-speak. A team that's serious about trying to win can't put a below-average defender at SS.

 

[Criznit]

Amed's days as a regular SS in a Guardian uniform are DONE. The only reason they'd play him there is to show other teams "see he can play SS" in some misguided attempt to maximize his trade value. I just don't see our FO being so clever they'd outsmart themselves..

It's time to play Gimenez... Arias spent the whole year in AAA and Rocchio should play a chunk of games or more in AAA.

Playing Amed at SS just doesn't make sense for a team like the Guardians.

As another poster said - if he starts the season as our reg SS "I'll be MAD".

 

[DCTribefan]

I have no idea what Tito thinks of Palacios. I'm sure he'e well versed with the kid's performance, but I have no intuition/inclination of Tito's feelings toward him. I do however feel that Tito will not play Amed in LF. He'll keep him at SS before doing that. Hell, if he wanted to do that he would have probably already don't it. There was ample opportunity last season to play Amed in LF and he didn't get a single rep.

They'll make a move, but I doubt if it is one any of us expected.

I doubt Tito could identify Palacios walking down the street, which is not a knock on Tito. Rather, he is largely an unknown entity to Tito after his being away most of 2021.

 

[mopete12]

True to an extent.

But in the case of our outfield, there are outside options to vastly improve the situation immediately.

With Amed, the options are untried prospects, which are unlikely to make a significant immediate difference.

There is also the Citi Field effect, which I've mentioned several times.

Outside of Citi Field, statistically the worst hitting park in baseball, Ameds career OBP is over .330. Last year, once Tito stopped screwing around with him, his OBP was right at his career mark outside of Citi Field.

Average OBP was around .317 last year. If Amed is allowed to play SS full time...no multiple positions, no platooning...you can expect him to have an above average OBP with an OPS above .780.

While Amed is not an above average fielder, he is not the butcher fans make him out to be. His DRS in 2019, when he was allowed to play SS every day without interruption, was -3...and he had shown improvement every year.

After the break last season, Amed made three errors. He actually was pretty good after the break when he didn't have to worry about being moved.

I wouldn't cry if we moved him to 2B, because IMO Gimenez is the best SS we have, excepting maybe Rocchio in a few years. (Gimenez is another player highly under estimated here) But if a change is to be made, do it the first day of spring training, and stick to it. No more of this experimenting on the fly.

Amed was a far better prospect than anybody currently in the system, but everything that the Mets and Indians did with him was a hindrance to his development and his production.

The Mets played him 3 innings in the OF, the rest of his time there was at SS. He played 2.5-3 years solely at SS and was rated as a poor defender, hence the discussions about making him a Ben Zobrist type player.

I would stick Amed at 2B or see if you can get some value for a team that wants to play him at SS. I agree there is no reason to try him in the OF.

 

[DCTribefan]

Amed is incredibly overrated because he BABIPed his way to several multi hit games. He's basically an INF version of Jordan Luplow, a luxury platoon bat that crushes LHP, but shouldn't even start vs RHP, let alone bat 2nd. I'd trade him to the Angels for Taylor Ward in a heartbeat.

On a strong contender, Amed would be a platoon MIF/OF bench Util starting and PH vs LHP

Albeit a very fast Luplow.

 

[Gson]

Anthony Gose, pitching in LIDOM, has continued to show he can get his pitches into the strike zone in good places.. Further outings to come, but, so far..pretty impressive..

and he might run faster than Luplow too...

 

[CATS44]

Well, we shall see.

This org is very good at communicating with its players, letting them know in detail what their plans are. They dont 'coach speak' to the players.

We are gonna see about a lot of things.

Antonetti and Chernoff could have jobs just about anywhere they choosed....places where they could make more money and have more money to spend. They didn't stay here after Covid because they wanted to go thru a continuing rebuild or another season of tryouts.

And Tito didn't go thru everything in the last six months to manage a team in a rebuild or constant churning of fringe players and prospects.

The org didn't trade off its rotation in order to continue to reduce payroll....nor did it sign a mega international class in 2016...then continue to add to the prospect list...in order to play sixteen MIFs or let them rot in Columbus and Akron.

The org is not gonna continue to trot out one of the worst outfields in baseball...nor sit and wait until its two best players leave. This FO is not gonna sit on its collective butt and watch Chicago move farther ahead and Detroit pass us by.....not with this rotation, closer, and core players.

Every move the FO has made over the last several years...every trade...every added prospect and young vet...has lead to this off season. Covid may have moved it back to this off season, but the time has come.

We can speculate on the names all we want, but there will be major acquisitions before opening day...and some of these prospects will be traded to get them.

 

[BimboColesHair]

I doubt Tito could identify Palacios walking down the street, which is not a knock on Tito. Rather, he is largely an unknown entity to Tito after his being away most of 2021.

You would be wrong.

 

[CATS44]

Nobody gets mad because a certain player does or doesn't play.

Fans get mad when their team loses.

This team doesn't lose too often. It doesn't lose because it's front office and manager don't make very many mistakes, and usually out thinks, out maneuvers, and out manages the opposition.

 

[Criznit]

Nobody gets mad because a certain player does or doesn't play.

Fans get mad when their team loses.

This team doesn't lose too often. It doesn't lose because it's front office and manager don't make very many mistakes, and usually out thinks, out maneuvers, and out manages the opposition.

Really? His name is Ben Gamel. He batted leadoff and played CF for us last year.

 

[CATS44]

I've had this exact conversation before.

A young MLBer who didn't hit for much and everybody said he was a poor defensive player.

Thru age 25 in 1551 PAs, his OPS was .705 and his wRC+ was 94. 2.8 fWAR over four years. 16 HR...39 SBs...-12.6 oWAR...-17.5 dWAR

Fans said he couldn't hit, couldn't play defense, didn't run well, and had no power.

Compare that to Amed.

Thru age 25...2152 PAs...735 OPS...92 wRC+....7.5 fWAR. 43 HR...63 SB...-14.1 oWAR....19 dWAR.

The same folks are saying he can't hit, can't field, and has no power. They usually admit Amed can run well.

Now, at least one poster will say that Michael Brantley is a special case. But only one person said that then. Amed is a better player at the same age than Michael Brantley was. And if the Indians had given up on Brantley, like most fans wanted, some other team would have gotten a steal....just like some team will get a steal if the Guardians do what most fans want them to do with Amed.

And, more than one on this forum will try to rewrite history by claiming that almost everybody knew what Brantley would become...and thats total BS.

BTW, Brantley didn't become the real Brantley for another year...when he was 27.

 

[sportscoach]

I've had this exact conversation before.

A young MLBer who didn't hit for much and everybody said he was a poor defensive player.

Thru age 25 in 1551 PAs, his OPS was .705 and his wRC+ was 94. 2.8 fWAR over four years. 16 HR...39 SBs...-12.6 oWAR...-17.5 dWAR

Fans said he couldn't hit, couldn't play defense, didn't run well, and had no power.

Compare that to Amed.

Thru age 25...2152 PAs...735 OPS...92 wRC+....7.5 fWAR. 43 HR...63 SB...-14.1 oWAR....19 dWAR.

The same folks are saying he can't hit, can't field, and has no power. They usually admit Amed can run well.

Now, at least one poster will say that Michael Brantley is a special case. But only one person said that then. Amed is a better player at the same age than Michael Brantley was. And if the Indians had given up on Brantley, like most fans wanted, some other team would have gotten a steal....just like some team will get a steal if the Guardians do what most fans want them to do with Amed.

And, more than one on this forum will try to rewrite history by claiming that almost everybody knew what Brantley would become...and thats total BS.

BTW, Brantley didn't become the real Brantley for another year...when he was 27.

I really liked Brantley and thought he had a good skillset personally and with the fact he could always bounce things off his dad who was a MLB player in the past, that help is progression in the long run.

There is one big difference between Brantley and Amed and that is plate discipline... Amed doesn't have a good BB or SO rate for his batting profile type. He really has to get more walks and less SOs if he's every going to amount to more than 100 OPS+ player... Brantley has half the SOs of Amed and something like that, I dont think Amed will ever have. I don't see Amed being more than a 9 hole hitter aka second leadoff style of guy...

 

[biggie4]

Don’t recall many people here giving up on Brantley

 

[sportscoach]

I have an odd suggestion... is anyone against getting Danny Duffy on a minor league contract an opt out and incentives? He isn't supposed to be ready until the second half of the season so i wouldn't mind getting him into camp. You can never have enough pitching talent..