Cleveland Guardians Offseason Discussion 2021-22

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sportscoach

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When comparing Rocchio to Lindor, how do they stack up defensively? I understand that Rocchio's glove is highly thought of, but IIRC, Frankie's glove was supposed to be his strongest attribute, and even at the time he cracked the big leagues, his bat was not considered to be all that.

I'm very much a novice compared to most of you when it comes to baseball, but I could've sworn the sentiment on Frankie was that he'd be awesome in the field, but no one ever expected his bat to be anywhere near what it ended up becoming. If I am recalling correctly, then I don't think it's fair to expect Rocchio's bat to be anywhere near Lindor's just because his minor league numbers are comparable to Lindor's.

Well Rocchio's bat is very similar to Lindors, from the way he hits from both sides of the plate and whatnot plus he is supposed to be just as good if not better than Arias at SS... I mean if you did MLB comparisons, Arias looks closer to Correa while Rocchio is Lindor... I mean on paper, it's hard not to be excited about both guys since they compare to pro All-star SS. If I said Rocchio doesn't have the same upside as Lindor I'd be lying as well. We don't know if the power will be there, but it be hard to say his numbers won't be very good if he hits his potential. He has to get more walks and take less SOs going forward but otherwise, he has just about the same scouting report as Lindor had...
 

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Well Rocchio's bat is very similar to Lindors, from the way he hits from both sides of the plate and whatnot plus he is supposed to be just as good if not better than Arias at SS... I mean if you did MLB comparisons, Arias looks closer to Correa while Rocchio is Lindor... I mean on paper, it's hard not to be excited about both guys since they compare to pro All-star SS. If I said Rocchio doesn't have the same upside as Lindor I'd be lying as well. We don't know if the power will be there, but it be hard to say his numbers won't be very good if he hits his potential. He has to get more walks and take less SOs going forward but otherwise, he has just about the same scouting report as Lindor had...
Totally appreciate the response coach. It's just that I was under the impression that Frankie's MLB bat pleasantly surprised all of us, and if we are projecting Rocchio's bat to be similar to Lindor's based on minor league stats, I think it's unfair to Rocchio to expect a similar pleasant surprise. Am I making sense here?
 

Steve_424

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The true heir to Lindor. Too bad he'll have to be moved because of Amed Rosario, Arias, Freeman, and Jones are blocking SS, 3b, and 2b. Edit: forgot about Jose after he signs his extension that Bimbo told us about. Just not sure where he plays.

Freeman projects more as a 2B. Jones will be at 1B or OF. Rosario won't be here in two years.

The only one's potentially blocking Rochhio at SS are Gimenez and Arias.
 
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Derek

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Totally appreciate the response coach. It's just that I was under the impression that Frankie's MLB bat pleasantly surprised all of us, and if we are projecting Rocchio's bat to be similar to Lindor's based on minor league stats, I think it's unfair to Rocchio to expect a similar pleasant surprise. Am I making sense here?
Obviously, Francisco Lindor is nowhere near a disappointment. However, if I were to nitpick, I’d say that, when he was coming up, I thought he could have been a better hitter than he has been.

I thought he had the potential to hit on the same level as Michael Brantley. I think his decision to focus more on power, while incredibly successful, is something I believe held him back from being the absolute best hitter he could have been.
 
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CATS44

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Early reports on Lindor were not as optimistic about his ability to be an impact bat. Everything was based on plus hit, plus defense, plus speed, plus arm...questionable power.

Rocchio is listed as good in everything, but the arm, which is average.

If you read scouting reports about Rocchio, they almost unanimously rave about his baseball IQ.

And if you compare scouting reports at the same ages, there is/was the universal thought that they are/were low risk prospects. Even at their floors, they were projected to be starting MLB MIFs.

But IMO its unfair to compare Rocchio to a generational talent like Lindor...which inevitably results in disappointment.
 

sportscoach

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Totally appreciate the response coach. It's just that I was under the impression that Frankie's MLB bat pleasantly surprised all of us, and if we are projecting Rocchio's bat to be similar to Lindor's based on minor league stats, I think it's unfair to Rocchio to expect a similar pleasant surprise. Am I making sense here?

I'd say if you put the scouting report from 20 year old Rocchio and 20 year old Lindor they would be a very close comparison. Now that being stated Lindor exceeded his scouting reports honestly, so to say Rocchio has the same potential as the scouting reports said for Lindor is actually reasonable, but to say he will become the peak Lindor that we saw, I'd say wouldn't be.

Also I agree with @Derek I think Lindor would have been a better hitter overall if he a little less for HRs and more for the contact/OBP%
 

CalBuckeyeRob

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When comparing Rocchio to Lindor, how do they stack up defensively? I understand that Rocchio's glove is highly thought of, but IIRC, Frankie's glove was supposed to be his strongest attribute, and even at the time he cracked the big leagues, his bat was not considered to be all that.

I'm very much a novice compared to most of you when it comes to baseball, but I could've sworn the sentiment on Frankie was that he'd be awesome in the field, but no one ever expected his bat to be anywhere near what it ended up becoming. If I am recalling correctly, then I don't think it's fair to expect Rocchio's bat to be anywhere near Lindor's just because his minor league numbers are comparable to Lindor's.

Like many minor league guys of the size of Lindor, you can't be sure if there will ever be a legit power element to their game. Rocchio has an eerily similar swing and size to Lindor. But until you display the power, you can't count on it. But he is sure a guy I hope they keep if they decide to move some middle IFs in deals.
 

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Obviously, Francisco Lindor is nowhere near a disappointment. However, if I were to nitpick, I’d say that, when he was coming up, I thought he could have been a better hitter than he has been.

I thought he had the potential to hit on the same level as Michael Brantley. I think his decision to focus more on power, while incredibly success, is something I believe held him back from being the absolute best hitter he could have been.
If you like the way that Brantley hit, you may like watching Rocchio bats, esp from the left side. He does not use a stride batting left handed....and very little stride from the right side.
 

sportscoach

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Early reports on Lindor were not as optimistic about his ability to be an impact bat. Everything was based on plus hit, plus defense, plus speed, plus arm...questionable power.

Rocchio is listed as good in everything, but the arm, which is average.

If you read scouting reports about Rocchio, they almost unanimously rave about his baseball IQ.

And if you compare scouting reports at the same ages, there is/was the universal thought that they are/were low risk prospects. Even at their floors, they were projected to be starting MLB MIFs.

But IMO its unfair to compare Rocchio to a generational talent like Lindor...which inevitably results in disappointment.

But we always put a comparison on players to give us a sense of who they could be and its not an unreasonable comparison, but Lindor wasn't supposed to be who he became so I am not comparing him to that, I am just comparing him with the minor league Lindor scouting reports...
 

MadThinker88

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Early reports on Lindor were not as optimistic about his ability to be an impact bat. Everything was based on plus hit, plus defense, plus speed, plus arm...questionable power.

Rocchio is listed as good in everything, but the arm, which is average.

If you read scouting reports about Rocchio, they almost unanimously rave about his baseball IQ.

And if you compare scouting reports at the same ages, there is/was the universal thought that they are/were low risk prospects. Even at their floors, they were projected to be starting MLB MIFs.

But IMO its unfair to compare Rocchio to a generational talent like Lindor...which inevitably results in disappointment.
In case it wasn't noted earlier, the nickname of Brayan Rocchio is 'The Professor' (to reflect his high baseball IQ)..
 

CATS44

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Another point about Rocchio...

He has natural lift in his swing that Lindor did not have. Rocchio does not have to sell out to have launch angle.

Lindor...and Jose...learned that after they got to Cleveland.
 

CATS44

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But we always put a comparison on players to give us a sense of who they could be and its not an unreasonable comparison, but Lindor wasn't supposed to be who he became so I am not comparing him to that, I am just comparing him with the minor league Lindor scouting reports...
This may be true, but Lindor...in spite of any questions...was a 1st rounder, a concensus top 10 prospect, with a 65 FV.

Rocchio in that regard is closer to Jose...an overlooked international prospect that was signed for well below what others in his class got. Even now, at best he is a top 75 concensus prospect with a 50 FV.

Lindor may have exceeded expectations, but only by degrees. He was expected to be an all around impact player...only the power was doubtful. The real over achiever was Jose.
 

Benway

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When I've watched, Rocchio's arm looks plenty strong, just not quite on target.
 

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I'd say if you put the scouting report from 20 year old Rocchio and 20 year old Lindor they would be a very close comparison. Now that being stated Lindor exceeded his scouting reports honestly, so to say Rocchio has the same potential as the scouting reports said for Lindor is actually reasonable, but to say he will become the peak Lindor that we saw, I'd say wouldn't be.

Also I agree with @Derek I think Lindor would have been a better hitter overall if he a little less for HRs and more for the contact/OBP%
I would surmise you could say that about a lot of guys but muh launch angle gets me on ESPN highlights.
 

Gson

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I would surmise you could say that about a lot of guys but muh launch angle gets me on ESPN highlights.
Progressive Insurance should do a "becoming your parents" commercial using old timers watching ESPN Highlights w/ baseball statistics (Batting average...stolen bases.. etc) versus the OPS+ and DRS and etc.. etc.. could be pretty funny...
 

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