Collin Sexton | The Young Bull

[Cavatt]

Just p;laying his own game outside the team again like he did beginning of last year. Makes no sense. I don't really get it.

He seemed to have figured it out, was playing a modern game, and then screeched to a halt and just regressed?

He has no top gear right now, so this is a look at him when he is older and has lost some athleticism. Npot being able to blow by guys has been a problem, because earlier in the year no one could keep up with him.

He is still hurt I guess. I don't have a better explanation. Sure, the scouting report is out, but he has struggled to hit 20. It isn't happening as easily as it was.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

I need dogs that lead, not dogs that follow.

You and I both want an asshole like CP3 running the point. Garland ain't that asshole. Sexton has shown demonstrably more scoring prowess than anyone on our roster, and I'd rather build around that than hope that someday Garland's balls drop and he becomes a man.

I'm never having a Garland vs Sexton at PG debate again, my brother. There is no debate to have. One is a point guard, and one is a scorer. That's not even debatable anymore.

If the discussion is about finding a point guard that better compliments Sexton, even though I dont agree with taking that approach, that is a discussion I'll entertain before I go back to debating whether Sexton can be a PG or not.

I've given more keystrokes in this response on explaining this than I ever planned on doing again, but it's only because you're one of my original RCF brothers and I love you.

Moving on, otherwise

 

[Man Called X]

I'm never having a Garland vs Sexton at PG debate again, my brother. There is no debate to have. One is a point guard, and one is a scorer. That's not even debatable anymore.

If the discussion is about finding a point guard that better compliments Sexton, even though I dont agree with taking that approach, that is a discussion I'll entertain before I go back to debating whether Sexton can be a PG or not.

I've given more keystrokes in this response on explaining this than I ever planned on doing again, but it's only because you're one of my original RCF brothers and I love you.

Moving on, otherwise

And I've given up on the Sexton as a PG myself, just not sold on the Ball pairing that everyone wants to push at the moment.

I just know that in a post-LeBron world, I'm taking the best talent I have and building around it. The short scoring guard that puts up borderline all-star numbers. Fuck it, let's find the Eric Snow to Iverson-lite and fuck around for a bit. Infinitely more fun to watch than sleepy Darius and his much touted infinite 3 point range that doesn't exist.

*Note, I ultimately don't care about another championship as I don't think it's a realistic goal without transcendent talent. So I'd rather watch some fun games and maybe some playoff victories. I'd rather be the 7SOL Suns than what the no LeBron Cavs traditionally are.*

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

And I've given up on the Sexton as a PG myself, just not sold on the Ball pairing that everyone wants to push at the moment.

I just know that in a post-LeBron world, I'm taking the best talent I have and building around it. The short scoring guard that puts up borderline all-star numbers. Fuck it, let's find the Eric Snow to Iverson-lite and fuck around for a bit. Infinitely more fun to watch than sleepy Darius and his much touted infinite 3 point range that doesn't exist.

I had this discussion with my dad, who loves Sexton and recommended we do the same thing re: Eric Snow/Iverson, last year after the Beilein firing and before the Drummond trade...

Sexton's mindset is Iverson but his ability/game on both ends is nowhere close, and the NBA game would not be as kind to that model as it was back then either. The new-age version of Iverson and 4 defenders/selfless pass first vets on offense was Westbrook in OKC post Durant. Sexton just isn't dynamic enough on both ends of the floor or in getting others involved to even consider it. The closer example of it both in ability and in modernized NBA, was GSW and Jerry West was intent on not letting his rebuild get cornered into that.

No thanks.

 

[Man Called X]

I had this discussion with my dad, who loves Sexton and recommended we do the same thing re: Eric Snow/Iverson, last year after the Beilein firing and before the Drummond trade...

Sexton's mindset is Iverson but his ability/game on both ends is nowhere close, and the NBA game would not be as kind to that model as it was back then either. The new-age version of Iverson and 4 defenders/selfless pass first vets on offense was Westbrook in OKC post Durant. Sexton just isn't dynamic enough on both ends of the floor or in getting others involved to even consider it. The closer example of it both in ability and in modernized NBA, was GSW and Jerry West was intent on not letting his rebuild get cornered into that.

No thanks.

Sssh... My dream will always be a modernized Adelman style offense.

Not sure how you get the Westbrook PD OKC era is similar to Iverson. It was Westbrick surrounded by non shooters. Iverson at least had Snow that could manage the game and initiate secondary ball handling.

Ideally we need that big wing that could be the initial creator but fuck if we'll ever find him from the draft.

This is all depressing.

 

[saymac]

I am tired of all the talk bad about sexton teams know that making sure that if you can shut or hold sexton scoring down you can beat the cavs they are not worried about garland or anyone else you put sexton on a good team he will still average 20 or more points a game how many assist would he have if we had players who could make shot . ALSO talking about westbrook before beverly took that cheapshot on his knee he was one of the best p g in basketball .

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

Not sure how you get the Westbrook PD OKC era is similar to Iverson. It was Westbrick surrounded by non shooters. Iverson at least had Snow that could manage the game and initiate secondary ball handling.

Iverson was a pure scorer surrounded by non-shooters as well. Eric Snow, George Lynch, Aaron McKie, Kevin Ollie, Jumaine Jones, Larry Hughes... it was brutal

I had dreams of Eric Maynor becoming Westbrook's Snow after Harden was dealt. He was on his way before his knee blew out.

 

[Man Called X]

Iverson was a pure scorer surrounded by non-shooters as well. Eric Snow, George Lynch, Aaron McKie, Kevin Ollie, Jumaine Jones, Larry Hughes... it was brutal

I had dreams of Eric Maynor becoming Westbrook's Snow after Harden was dealt. He was on his way before his knee blew out.

I just argue that Westbrick was the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd initiator for OKC. And that the Iverson teams functioned better because there was at least a secondary ball handler.

 

[OptimusPrime]

I had this discussion with my dad, who loves Sexton and recommended we do the same thing re: Eric Snow/Iverson, last year after the Beilein firing and before the Drummond trade...

Sexton's mindset is Iverson but his ability/game on both ends is nowhere close, and the NBA game would not be as kind to that model as it was back then either. The new-age version of Iverson and 4 defenders/selfless pass first vets on offense was Westbrook in OKC post Durant. Sexton just isn't dynamic enough on both ends of the floor or in getting others involved to even consider it. The closer example of it both in ability and in modernized NBA, was GSW and Jerry West was intent on not letting his rebuild get cornered into that.

No thanks.

To be fair he said get an Eric Snow, not a Jumaine Jones and Aaron McKie too. The already have those to be honest, and it's why I don't really know how to evaluate what I'm seeing. I don't know how many more assists Sexton and Garland would have had if they were surrounded by NBA caliber shooters, or how much more space they would have to operate either. I want to see what they look like with at least decent players around them. I'll live with the rookie figuring things out, but I've seen enough of Osman and Stevens and really Dotson too, although he's ok once in a great while.

You see a guy like Mike Muscala lighting it up for OKC, why do we have to have Cedi Osman bruising the glass 12-15 times a night? I need to see a couple veterans that can make a shot come here and then I can better judge what the young guards are doing.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

I just argue that Westbrick was the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd initiator for OKC. And that the Iverson teams functioned better because there was at least a secondary ball handler.

I dont think you need to argue that, at all.

Iverson's teams were better because it was a different game they were playing which resulted in some of the worst defense first 70ppg slug-fest basketball (Indy, Bos, NJ all countered the Philly model and Philly never got back through the East). The games were ugly and the league made changes to keep that from happening again. We're not returning to that era and the game calls for ball movement and your best player getting everyone else involved, so why would we try to return to it?

Look at what Brooks tried to do with Beal last year in Washington. It was a offense first version of that and it was a joke. You got career years from Beal, Bertans and Thomas Bryant but really all they did was inflate their own garbage's value.

Trying to replicate either of those two builds in this era is a recipe for loosing.

 

[Cavatt]

To be fair he said get an Eric Snow, not a Jumaine Jones and Aaron McKie too. The already have those to be honest, and it's why I don't really know how to evaluate what I'm seeing. I don't know how many more assists Sexton and Garland would have had if they were surrounded by NBA caliber shooters, or how much more space they would have to operate either. I want to see what they look like with at least decent players around them. I'll live with the rookie figuring things out, but I've seen enough of Osman and Stevens and really Dotson too, although he's ok once in a great while.

You see a guy like Mike Muscala lighting it up for OKC, why do we have to have Cedi Osman bruising the glass 12-15 times a night? I need to see a couple veterans that can make a shot come here and then I can better judge what the young guards are doing.

Yeah the spacing is so bad. You just see other teams stretch the Cavs out and put them in bad spots, whereas the opponent packs the paint and dares the Cavs to shoot.

 

[bigking777]

... why do we have to have Cedi Osman bruising the glass 12-15 times a night?

That's not a fair assessment. Sometimes he misses the glass completely.

 

[weepinwillow]

1. you can't have two defensive sieves in your backcourt.
2. You can't have two selfish ball hogs in your backcourt, and make NO mistake, both of them play a selfish game, one with his scoring, one with his passing (yep, you can be a selfish passer)

I am starting to think you don't have your PG or SG on the roster currently. Though it's hard to gauge guys decision making when having to play with someone like Collin (or Drummond prior). Like, would you make the extra pass if you had confidence the ball might find you again?

I thought Collin was turning a corner, I think he did, and then turned another corner and is headed back just on a different road. Maybe he thinks his extension is tied to scoring v winning plays.. heck, it probably is.

 

[Cavatt]

1. you can't have two defensive sieves in your backcourt.
2. You can't have two selfish ball hogs in your backcourt, and make NO mistake, both of them play a selfish game, one with his scoring, one with his passing (yep, you can be a selfish passer)

I am starting to think you don't have your PG or SG on the roster currently. Though it's hard to gauge guys decision making when having to play with someone like Collin (or Drummond prior). Like, would you make the extra pass if you had confidence the ball might find you again?

I thought Collin was turning a corner, I think he did, and then turned another corner and is headed back just on a different road. Maybe he thinks his extension is tied to scoring v winning plays.. heck, it probably is.

He was scoring easier off the ball. He just forgot that during the time off from injuries. He is better finishing possessions than starting them that is for sure.

 

[ice cream man]

A couple things I know:

1. If we’re playing a team like Portland, or Atlanta, we can’t have Okoro guarding Lillard/Trae, exposing our already terrible matchups even more so. Collin needs to man up and say “I’ll take him.” Not just at the end of the game. For the majority. It’s not too much for him. He’s supposed to be our leader. He’s our #1 offensive option yes but he’s not 35 year old LeBron putting the whole team on his back.

Garland will never be a good defender. There’s no reason Sexton can’t be above average defensively against opposing pgs. I’m not saying he’s there right now (bad awareness, bad at transition, not great at getting through screens) but he has shown he can be a pest, and I’m not worried about him correcting any dumb fouls he’s committed.

2. If Sexton will never be a true pg, then you better find one with some size, or find a point forward. SexLand cannot start and Okoro is a 2, not a 3.

Unfortunately it doesn’t appear JBB will be changing the starting lineup anytime soon.