Collin Sexton | The Young Bull

[2 For The Brew]

Again, Lou Williams at his peak. Manu Ginobli. Jason Terry. Jamal Crawford at his peak... They all came off the bench in order to allow for a more balanced starting lineup (whether it be for defense or offense). All have been great scorers off the bench. There are more examples too. Thinking coming off the bench if a player gets starter minutes is obtuse.

None of those guys were getting the minutes Sexton is getting now coming off the bench. Collin is also outscoring most of them, in some cases substantially. If he’s eventually moved to the bench his minutes will have to be cut.

Crawford didn’t come off the bench until his tenth season (other than his first three years when he was a kid). Lou Williams is a 14.4 ppg career scorer. Jason Terry was a starter into his ninth season. The two years Ginobili was a starter for every game at age 27 and 33 were his two all star years Where he average 16ppg and 17ppg and 30 mpg (career average 25 mpg).

In Hollywood they call this typecasting. Someone decides that an actor is fit for a certain role and the industry doesn’t offer other roles. Oliver Stone was told Michael Douglas wasn’t a good actor and was the wrong guy to cast as Gordon Gekko. Douglas won an academy award for his performance because he had the ability to improve and Stone coached him up.

Sexton is still improving. You don’t rein in, hamper or sell guys like that.

 

[Littaguy714]

Cancer is not the right word for Colin. It is not about his teammates liking him, It is about his teammates struggling to play with him.

Offensively, the way he dominates the ball and never looks to set up his teammates, he just sucks the energy right out of the team as a whole, but puts up great individual numbers.

This just was not the most ideal situation for him to be drafted into. He grabbed the bull by the horns and become the offense a few years ago when LBJ left and the well was bone dry.

The problem is, he never learned how to play team ball and it has not improved at all the last couple of years. He would have been better servied if he were drafted by a very good veteran team where he could have learned how to play team ball.

What you do with Colin going forward is really a huge ?.

He can put up points, but he is not an elite and a franchise player. When you are building a team in small market Cleveland and superstars and big name free agents are off the table, you really need to develop a team oriented concept and Colin just does not fit with that.

 

[kookoo]

None of those guys were getting the minutes Sexton is getting now coming off the bench. Collin is also outscoring most of them, in some cases substantially. If he’s eventually moved to the bench his minutes will have to be cut.

Crawford didn’t come off the bench until his tenth season (other than his first three years when he was a kid). Lou Williams is a 14.4 ppg career scorer. Jason Terry was a starter into his ninth season. The two years Ginobili was a starter for every game at age 27 and 33 were his two all star years Where he average 16ppg and 17ppg and 30 mpg (career average 25 mpg).

In Hollywood they call this typecasting. Someone decides that an actor is fit for a certain role and the industry doesn’t offer other roles. Oliver Stone was told Michael Douglas wasn’t a good actor and was the wrong guy to cast as Gordon Gekko. Douglas won an academy award for his performance because he had the ability to improve and Stone coached him up.

Sexton is still improving. You don’t rein in, hamper or sell guys like that.

All fair points. I'm just making a case that he can still be an elite scorer off the bench, even if my examples were poorly researched and surface level, lol.

 

[weepinwillow]

In wins, Sexton averages 28.9/4.6/3.2 on 52.4/45.7/80.6. In losses, Sexton averages 21.7/3.9/2.6 on 45.6/30.0/82.6. If he would have been able to play against a Charlotte team without Ball and Hayward, he would have looked as good as the rest of the team did that night.

Hornets have played good basketball even after their injuries.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

The problem is, he never learned how to play team ball and it has not improved at all the last couple of years. He would have been better servied if he were drafted by a very good veteran team where he could have learned how to play team ball.

He's shown some really good development in his approach to the game "off-the-ball" in the most recent games before this 2 games lost.

Since the losing streak right after the ASB, I've been encouraged by his approach to the game on offense. More letting the ball find him and very good movement, spacing and passing when it does find him.

I'm hoping he goes back to how he was approaching the game recently when we play Chicago

 

[weepinwillow]

I disagree last night once Sexton was on the bench boom the lead was taken away and never got it back. The whole team besides Sexton sucked I mean Garland was atrocious. This would’ve been a 40 point blowout without Sexton. I don’t mind the loss we need a top 5 pick.

I agree that last night wasn't as much a "Collin-dominated the ball loss."

We will see. We are fast approaching a crossroads on Sexton. I like him off the ball where the decision making is taken away from him. I think he sees himself as on the level of a Jamal Murray or Donovan Mitchell, and I don't think he is (both of those guys are better play makers and have quicker releases off the bounce).

 

[fncavsfan]

Hornets have played good basketball even after their injuries.

Not true. Last win was against Bucks team that sat their entire starting lineup. Since then losses to Hawks, Lakers (without AD and Lebron) and us.

And those who want to point game to game to see how great we are vs how bad just don't understand basketball. In any given game players get hot and cold-any NBA player can get hot.

We scored 103 points against the Hornets-and that took Prince going 6 for 8 on threes-how often you want to bank on that to win you a game?-many of those shots were very very very poor shot selection (oh wait, it must have been all the amazing ball movement we had LOL)-he took shots with 20 seconds on shot clock in last 2 minutes of the game with a lead--but they went in-as a coach it is a "no,no, no, good shot". We won because the Hornets could only muster 90 pts-they were awful on offense.

Here is #1 problem with Cavs--we have a washed up 30 mil player still acting like he is a superstar on the court. We have a role player who has not accomplished anything waiving off our guards to bring the ball up himself.

Here is what I know about most NBA teams- If they have their starting shooting guard score 14 pts in the 1st quarter on 5-6 from the floor-flying around everywhere--they would get him the ball MORE---not these Cavs--2nd Q-Collin gets 2 shots-seemed to almost purposely been freezing him out.....and we fall behind. Way to freeze out the only player scoring for you. At some point Collin sees his teammates can't make shots and THEY are not moving the ball to him- this seems to force his mindset in to taking a few bad shots Watch the game again and see what Prince and Nance do. It really is amazing how stupid our veterans do play. Love is washed up-he can not post up-he should stop trying--he needs to just space the floor and rebound to max out what he has left. Nance looks like he has been sleep walking these past few games.

Love 2-10, 1for7 on 3's-5 pts....30 million per yr---we would be better of with Wade taking Love's minutes at this point-at least we are developing a younger player who plays WAY WAY better defense and we don't waste possessions thinking it is 2013.

Winning basketball? 4 coaches in 3 years--how many different lineups in that time frame? Sexton has been wildly better than he should have been considering all that he has had to deal with here. I do hope we trade him to a better situation. Then we can revisit this thread in a few years.

 

[Derek]

Not true. Last win was against Bucks team that sat their entire starting lineup. Since then losses to Hawks, Lakers (without AD and Lebron) and us.

And those who want to point game to game to see how great we are vs how bad just don't understand basketball. In any given game players get hot and cold-any NBA player can get hot.

We scored 103 points against the Hornets-and that took Prince going 6 for 8 on threes-how often you want to bank on that to win you a game?-many of those shots were very very very poor shot selection (oh wait, it must have been all the amazing ball movement we had LOL)-he took shots with 20 seconds on shot clock in last 2 minutes of the game with a lead--but they went in-as a coach it is a "no,no, no, good shot". We won because the Hornets could only muster 90 pts-they were awful on offense.

Here is #1 problem with Cavs--we have a washed up 30 mil player still acting like he is a superstar on the court. We have a role player who has not accomplished anything waiving off our guards to bring the ball up himself.

Here is what I know about most NBA teams- If they have their starting shooting guard score 14 pts in the 1st quarter on 5-6 from the floor-flying around everywhere--they would get him the ball MORE---not these Cavs--2nd Q-Collin gets 2 shots-seemed to almost purposely been freezing him out.....and we fall behind. Way to freeze out the only player scoring for you. At some point Collin sees his teammates can't make shots and THEY are not moving the ball to him- this seems to force his mindset in to taking a few bad shots Watch the game again and see what Prince and Nance do. It really is amazing how stupid our veterans do play. Love is washed up-he can not post up-he should stop trying--he needs to just space the floor and rebound to max out what he has left. Nance looks like he has been sleep walking these past few games.

Love 2-10, 1for7 on 3's-5 pts....30 million per yr---we would be better of with Wade taking Love's minutes at this point-at least we are developing a younger player who plays WAY WAY better defense and we don't waste possessions thinking it is 2013.

Winning basketball? 4 coaches in 3 years--how many different lineups in that time frame? Sexton has been wildly better than he should have been considering all that he has had to deal with here. I do hope we trade him to a better situation. Then we can revisit this thread in a few years.

Kevin Love is the problem?

Have you been paying attention?

The team has been substantially better since he returned to the court. He stunk last night on the second end of a back-to-back, but he's been playing really well and has not been "acting like a superstar" at all. He's been rebounding, spotting up, passing the ball, and really playing exactly how we need him to.

 

[weepinwillow]

Crawford didn’t come off the bench until his tenth season (other than his first three years when he was a kid). Lou Williams is a 14.4 ppg career scorer. Jason Terry was a starter into his ninth season. The two years Ginobili was a starter for every game at age 27 and 33 were his two all star years Where he average 16ppg and 17ppg and 30 mpg (career average 25 mpg).

Crawford and Terry were off their original teams by year 4/5, 14 pt Lou Williams stuck as a 6th man for 7 years w/Philly and Ginobili played with the best culture and coach in NBA history.

I still think Ben Gordon is Sexton's best comp as an NBA player. Another guy who was expected to be a starter but who's ultimate role in the NBA was that of a 6th man. And Ben off the Bulls (original team) after his 5th year as well.

 

[OptimusPrime]

It was one basketball game. In the first half, the ball was moving pretty well considering the Warriors were playing inside out and in an attempt to take away passing lanes and cutters. There was a long stretch late 1st to mid 2nd quarter where Sexton didn't even take a shot. He had a couple assists and should have had a couple more. But he was the only one that could score. He really should have shot it more than he did. In the second half, he didn't look to pass as much. I don't know why, but he was out there when they cut the Golden State lead to 6 before Curry exploded and put the game away, so it was working for a while.

Against an awful Hornets team, Love, Prince, and Garland combined for 59 points on 22-38 shooting, and the team still only scored 103. Last night, taking mostly the same exact shots, they combined for 37 points on 14-40. Okoro was hurt by the lack of cutting lanes and ball movement, but those three were taking shots they usually take and missed them.

If you want to argue that the whole team can't play with a ball dominant player, then you'd better never get a superstar to put around them. But it's probably more of the fact that with Allen back, the spacing isn't the same, so they need to generate it by collapsing the defense and getting the ball back outside again instead of trying to do the same things they were doing when Love and Wade were the bigs.

 

[Cavatt]

I think it is really good defense. This team can compete with a good offensive team, but often struggle against good defense. Why is GS a good defensive team. They are allowed to use their hands to play defense.

Collin was playing more of team game even before the allstar break allowing Darius to create more. This was struggling to get everyone to play together after getting pieces back IMO.

 

[Cavatt]

Probably going to draft a wing is my guess. I think that guy if he can create should come off the bench and you can bring him in if the starting backcourt is getting scorched. You can take Sexton or Garland out early if you need to.

 

[daddywags]

Folks seem to fixate on plus-minus numbers to guage how certain players performed in a given game. I think raw +/- stats are useless because there are too many factors ignored. "Real Plus-Minus" attempts to take into account other players on the floor for both teams and other factors. From ESPN, there are 513 players ranked in Real +/-. LeBron is 1, Steph is 2, etc. For the Cavs it's:

Love - 31; Allen - 75; Wade - 163; Nance - 183; Sexton - 218; Osman - 257; Prince - 265; Delly - 269; Hartenstein - 290; Garland - 334; Windler - 429; Okoro - 434; and Stevens - 494.

I think part of the perception problem for Sexton is that he's usually taken out mid-1st quarter and then subbed back in with 4 bench guys to finish the 1st quarter and start the 2nd. If the bench guys are not playing well nobody is a threat to score much less get his own shot besides Sexton. People want him to come off the bench but our problem isn't him starting. For instance, last night when he left the game with 5-1/2 minutes to go in the first quarter we were ahead 21-14. He had just made 2 free throws and then assisted a basket by Allen. He came back in with 3 minutes and change left and from then into the second quarter he played with backups. Inexplicably, he played the entire second quarter. We lost that quarter by 14 points. Sexton took one shot and made it. Garland took 10 shots in 9 minutes and made 4 of them. Yesterday the problem wasn't Sexton starting or Sexton dominating the ball.

 

[2 For The Brew]

Folks seem to fixate on plus-minus numbers to guage how certain players performed in a given game. I think raw +/- stats are useless because there are too many factors ignored. "Real Plus-Minus" attempts to take into account other players on the floor for both teams and other factors. From ESPN, there are 513 players ranked in Real +/-. LeBron is 1, Steph is 2, etc. For the Cavs it's:

Love - 31; Allen - 75; Wade - 163; Nance - 183; Sexton - 218; Osman - 257; Prince - 265; Delly - 269; Hartenstein - 290; Garland - 334; Windler - 429; Okoro - 434; and Stevens - 494.

I think part of the perception problem for Sexton is that he's usually taken out mid-1st quarter and then subbed back in with 4 bench guys to finish the 1st quarter and start the 2nd. If the bench guys are not playing well nobody is a threat to score much less get his own shot besides Sexton. People want him to come off the bench but our problem isn't him starting. For instance, last night when he left the game with 5-1/2 minutes to go in the first quarter we were ahead 21-14. He had just made 2 free throws and then assisted a basket by Allen. He came back in with 3 minutes and change left and from then into the second quarter he played with backups. Inexplicably, he played the entire second quarter. We lost that quarter by 14 points. Sexton took one shot and made it. Garland took 10 shots in 9 minutes and made 4 of them. Yesterday the problem wasn't Sexton starting or Sexton dominating the ball.

Actually Sexton played 7:41 of the second quarter. But he does tend to get a lot of minutes with the bench.

 

[avs2000]

Folks seem to fixate on plus-minus numbers to guage how certain players performed in a given game. I think raw +/- stats are useless because there are too many factors ignored. "Real Plus-Minus" attempts to take into account other players on the floor for both teams and other factors. From ESPN, there are 513 players ranked in Real +/-. LeBron is 1, Steph is 2, etc. For the Cavs it's:

Love - 31; Allen - 75; Wade - 163; Nance - 183; Sexton - 218; Osman - 257; Prince - 265; Delly - 269; Hartenstein - 290; Garland - 334; Windler - 429; Okoro - 434; and Stevens - 494.

I think part of the perception problem for Sexton is that he's usually taken out mid-1st quarter and then subbed back in with 4 bench guys to finish the 1st quarter and start the 2nd. If the bench guys are not playing well nobody is a threat to score much less get his own shot besides Sexton. People want him to come off the bench but our problem isn't him starting. For instance, last night when he left the game with 5-1/2 minutes to go in the first quarter we were ahead 21-14. He had just made 2 free throws and then assisted a basket by Allen. He came back in with 3 minutes and change left and from then into the second quarter he played with backups. Inexplicably, he played the entire second quarter. We lost that quarter by 14 points. Sexton took one shot and made it. Garland took 10 shots in 9 minutes and made 4 of them. Yesterday the problem wasn't Sexton starting or Sexton dominating the ball.

Since day one sexton gets blamed for everything