Collin Sexton | The Young Bull

[ansatsusha80]

Came back to this post after reading the SI article about Paul Pierce

Paul Pierce Reflects on a Hall of Fame Career

As the Celtics legend prepares to be enshrined, he is unapologetic about his past—and bullish about his future.

www.si.com

Ainge didn’t see it that way. “Paul was the only untouchable guy on that team,” he says. “The team just wasn’t good enough.” In 2004, Ainge hired Rivers as coach. He and Pierce immediately clashed. “People wouldn’t believe how often we argued,” says Pierce. He recalls countless meetings with Rivers and Ainge that led to heated arguments about his shot selection. “They were always telling me how to play,” says Pierce. “They wanted me to pass the ball more. Well, who did they want me to pass it to? Jiří Welsch? S---, I’d rather take a bad shot than pass it to Jiří Welsch.”

Not saying Sexton is a HOF player but I find stuff like this interesting. You want to build good habits and play the right way, but with horrible talent around you, guys naturally lose faith in their teammates (won't find a worse scoring and three point shooting team than the Cavs). I never watch Sexton thinking he shoots too much, if anything I feel like he goes long periods of over-passing (Cavs tend to pass a ton without much purpose and the end results usually isn't pretty) but the issue for him is that he has frozen in key moments (missing an obvious pass or picking up the dribble early) that have become more memorable.

Most of the time,he get his teammates involve first and then score. When,he does score it's like 4-8 points at a time unless he's hot. Then,he goes back to getting his teammates involve again. Half of the time,you'll look at the boxscore and see he has a very quiet 20-something point game unless he has a game like Brookyln where he was crazy hot in both overtimes.

I just don't understand,why so many people have an issue with him taking the most shots when the roster is filled with non-shooters.

I think the only player Sexton trust 100% is Garland. And,that's because him and Garland basically carried the team last season but nobody wants to acknowledge it.There were many games where Sexton and Garland had no help from nobody.

How is Sexton suppose to trust his teammates when they're missing shots all the time.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Most of the time,he get his teammates involve first and then score. When,he does score it's like 4-8 points at a time unless he's hot. Then,he goes back to getting his teammates involve again. Half of the time,you'll look at the boxscore and see he has a very quiet 20-something point game unless he has a game like Brookyln where he was crazy hot in both overtimes.

I just don't understand,why so many people have an issue with him taking the most shots when the roster is filled with non-shooters.

I think the only player Sexton trust 100% is Garland. And,that's because him and Garland basically carried the team last season but nobody wants to acknowledge it.There were many games where Sexton and Garland had no help from nobody.

How is Sexton suppose to trust his teammates when they're missing shots all the time.

I dunno. I'm as big a Sexton fan as anyone, but it is his job to make the correct basketball play and hit the open man. It's their job to make the shot. If he's not making good passes because he doesn't trust the other player to make the shot, then Sexton is in the wrong.

I don't think that's the reason he doesn't pass as much as he should. He just gets tunnel-vision sometimes.

 

[bs80]

I dunno. I'm as big a Sexton fan as anyone, but it is his job to make the correct basketball play and hit the open man. It's their job to make the shot. If he's not making good passes because he doesn't trust the other player to make the shot, then Sexton is in the wrong.

I definitely see what you're saying, but the correct basketball play on offense is the one that leads to the highest number of expected points. If he can create a shot that is expected to produce more points than making a good pass would be expected to produce, then the correct play would be to not pass.

I know I'm totally oversimplifying things, but my point is that IF his lack of trust in his teammates does in fact have merit, then he's in a no-win situation and his tunnel vision just might be justified.

 

[BodegaBayCav]

I think this Sexton discussion is about 2 basic groups of fans.

Group 1, sees his 24 point/game and improving assists with poor teammates surrounding him and says he is a near all-star, lets build around him.

Group 2, sees a good scorer that plays offense with blinders on who lacks touch and timing with his passes and says he may never be more than a good scorer on a bad team, let's see if we can get a better team player with more all around game even if we are giving up scoring.

I think most of both groups recognize he lacks court vision on both offense and defense and that his defense is in the lowest third in the NBA.

 

[ansatsusha80]

I dunno. I'm as big a Sexton fan as anyone, but it is his job to make the correct basketball play and hit the open man. It's their job to make the shot. If he's not making good passes because he doesn't trust the other player to make the shot, then Sexton is in the wrong.

I don't think that's the reason he doesn't pass as much as he should. He just gets tunnel-vision sometimes.

I disagree,if you're not trusting teammates to make shots,it's his teammates responsibility to get better making them. Teams were leaving Nance and Dellvadova wide open because they knew those two were going to miss more than they make them. There were plenty of times Sexton and Garland drew double teams and made the right play but their teammates just couldn't make shots at all.

As,for his passing,nobody wants to admit that he passes more than he does. I just don't understand it because like I said most of the time,he's trying to get his teammates involve first before getting his.

I think this Sexton discussion is about 2 basic groups of fans.

Group 1, sees his 24 point/game and improving assists with poor teammates surrounding him and says he is a near all-star, lets build around him.

Group 2, sees a good scorer that plays offense with blinders on who lacks touch and timing with his passes and says he may never be more than a good scorer on a bad team, let's see if we can get a better team player with more all around game even if we are giving up scoring.

I think most of both groups recognize he lacks court vision on both offense and defense and that his defense is in the lowest third in the NBA.

I don't think his vision all that ball though. Does he make stupid mistakes,I agree but name me a player who doesn't. As,for his defense people need to stop exaggerating his defense because folks act like he's Harden,Isaiah Thomas(the Boston midget)or Kyrie when it comes to his defense...I think people see him make a mistakes and use that against him. Nobody want to say,if it's the scheme or teammates that rotating incorrectly....

Does Sexton needs to get better off the ball when it comes to his defense,I agree but nobody talks about how good his on ball defending is. People will nitpick every single thing about him but rarely does the same thing about any other players on this team.

 

[avs2000]

I disagree,if you're not trusting teammates to make shots,it's his teammates responsibility to get better making them. Teams were leaving Nance and Dellvadova wide open because they knew those two were going to miss more than they make them. There were plenty of times Sexton and Garland drew double teams and made the right play but their teammates just couldn't make shots at all.

As,for his passing,nobody wants to admit that he passes more than he does. I just don't understand it because like I said most of the time,he's trying to get his teammates involve first before getting his.





I don't think his vision all that ball though. Does he make stupid mistakes,I agree but name me a player who doesn't. As,for his defense people need to stop exaggerating his defense because folks act like he's Harden,Isaiah Thomas(the Boston midget)or Kyrie when it comes to his defense...I think people see him make a mistakes and use that against him. Nobody want to say,if it's the scheme or teammates that rotating incorrectly....

Does Sexton needs to get better off the ball when it comes to his defense,I agree but nobody talks about how good his on ball defending is. People will nitpick every single thing about him but rarely does the same thing about any other players on this team.

I just do not get the nitpicking on him. Nobody talks about Garlands defense or lack there of ad Naseum.
sexton has improved every year. Let’s see what this year brings before we rush to move him

 

[weepinwillow]

Sexton doesn't lack trust in his teammates, he just forgets he has them when he gets the ball. He played like that his rookie year, plays like that now. It's not because he thinks they can't make the shot, it's because he literally isn't seeing the floor because he's focused on the rim.
You see my avatar? That's my dog. He's a large bloodhound and when he has a bone, he growls at my sons if they get too close. He won't bite them, and will eventually give the bone up if prodded, but it is not in his nature. And then he goes back to playing with them. But when he has the bone, he is myopically focused on the bone.

I don't think his vision all that ball though.

Is this the basketball version of a Freudian slip?

 

[Cavatt]

Collin didn't pass enough to even be a shooting guard as a rook. Now he does.

His next step is defensive improvement and consistently finding the right guy from double teams.

Running an offense won't likely be his thing, but passing out of multi-coverage based on his gravity will be a great help to the team. His kickouts to 3 were solid last year. He made more of those passes than Garland. Hopefully, Lauri can make those, and Okoro will be better there too.

 

[CavsKermit]

Came back to this post after reading the SI article about Paul Pierce

Paul Pierce Reflects on a Hall of Fame Career

As the Celtics legend prepares to be enshrined, he is unapologetic about his past—and bullish about his future.

www.si.com

Ainge didn’t see it that way. “Paul was the only untouchable guy on that team,” he says. “The team just wasn’t good enough.” In 2004, Ainge hired Rivers as coach. He and Pierce immediately clashed. “People wouldn’t believe how often we argued,” says Pierce. He recalls countless meetings with Rivers and Ainge that led to heated arguments about his shot selection. “They were always telling me how to play,” says Pierce. “They wanted me to pass the ball more. Well, who did they want me to pass it to? Jiří Welsch? S---, I’d rather take a bad shot than pass it to Jiří Welsch.”

Not saying Sexton is a HOF player but I find stuff like this interesting. You want to build good habits and play the right way, but with horrible talent around you, guys naturally lose faith in their teammates (won't find a worse scoring and three point shooting team than the Cavs). I never watch Sexton thinking he shoots too much, if anything I feel like he goes long periods of over-passing (Cavs tend to pass a ton without much purpose and the end results usually isn't pretty) but the issue for him is that he has frozen in key moments (missing an obvious pass or picking up the dribble early) that have become more memorable.

Sexton's second year in the NBA, K. Love was relatively healthy, shot .374 from 3 point range, and averaged 17.6 points on only 13 attempts. He was by far the most efficient shooter on the team. Cedi shot better than that from range at .383. Sexton averaged 16.7 FGAs and only 3 assists. Most of his assists went to TT who somehow managed to average 9.9 FGAs per game. Sexton played heavy minutes with players who could shoot but was dumping it off to TT, mostly because he was already in the paint and unguarded.

Last year, Garland shot .395 from 3 and Prince shot .415. How many of their threes were assisted by Sexton?

Yes, the Cavs needs more shooters, but that's not the problem. His speed is a double edged sword. It allows him to get to the paint but he doesn't see the floor well enough to hit the open man when moving that fast, especially when passing is his second option after the defense has foreclosed the possibility of him getting off a good shot.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I definitely see what you're saying, but the correct basketball play on offense is the one that leads to the highest number of expected points. If he can create a shot that is expected to produce more points than making a good pass would be expected to produce, then the correct play would be to not pass. I know I'm totally oversimplifying things, but my point is that IF his lack of trust in his teammates does in fact have merit, then he's in a no-win situation and his tunnel vision just might be justified.

I disagree. Players are supposed to make the plays for which the play is designed. If the play calls for Sexton to make a pass if a guy is open, then you make the pass. Coaches very often tell players they want them to take more 3 point shots even if they aren't good shooters, because that is one of the ways that shooting can improve. So the right play for the point guard to make is to pass to the open guy, even if the pg believes it is inefficient for that particular player to take that shot.

I love Sexton, and hope like hell we don't trade him. I'm a bigger fan of Sexton than of Garland.

But too often, Sexton does the same thing Kyrie often did -- as soon as he comes into the forecourt, you can tell almost immediately if he is looking to pass the ball, or to take it himself regardless of the other opportunities that are available in that possession. It's a major flaw on which he needs to continue to work.

 

[2 For The Brew]

He was 10th in minutes per game and 14th in free throws made. On a team that struggled to score he was the one guy JBB could count on to get points. Getting to the free throw line and knocking down the throws is a valuable skill. He also is fearless in clutch situations.

Collin didn’t get his FTA with Trae / Harden bullshit; he earned them. Top 20 FTM is a pretty impressive list of players.

 

[weepinwillow]

Collin didn’t get his FTA with Trae / Harden bullshit; he earned them. Top 20 FTM is a pretty impressive list of players.

You do have to wonder how much that will translate though next year with refs being told to swallow the whistle on forced contact. Collin didn't play that "if you called this at the Y there'd be fists" style that Harden and Trae like to play, but he did seek out the contact some.

 

[Fish Monger]

You do have to wonder how much that will translate though next year with refs being told to swallow the whistle on forced contact. Collin didn't play that "if you called this at the Y there'd be fists" style that Harden and Trae like to play, but he did seek out the contact some.

I think the new rule will have minimal impact on Sexton. I've always felt like the contact he draws, by and large, is from making aggressive (maybe even hardheaded despite-what-the-defense-is-doing) moves, as opposed to flinging himself into the direction of the nearest defender.

 

[bs80]

I disagree. Players are supposed to make the plays for which the play is designed. If the play calls for Sexton to make a pass if a guy is open, then you make the pass. Coaches very often tell players they want them to take more 3 point shots even if they aren't good shooters, because that is one of the ways that shooting can improve. So the right play for the point guard to make is to pass to the open guy, even if the pg believes it is inefficient for that particular player to take that shot.

I love Sexton, and hope like hell we don't trade him. I'm a bigger fan of Sexton than of Garland.

But too often, Sexton does the same thing Kyrie often did -- as soon as he comes into the forecourt, you can tell almost immediately if he is looking to pass the ball, or to take it himself regardless of the other opportunities that are available in that possession. It's a major flaw on which he needs to continue to work.

Perfectly fair points. Looking forward to seeing how he much growth he shows this season.

 

[weepinwillow]

I think the new rule will have minimal contact on Sexton. I've always felt like the contact he draws, by and large, is from making aggressive (maybe even hardheaded despite-what-the-defense-is-doing) moves, as opposed to flinging himself into the direction of the nearest defender.

I think there will be a season of learning from the refs where they hold the whistle on a decent amount of guard-created contact.

Back on Sexton:
There is a world where Collin plays like the downhill, isolation scorer he wants to play like and you have an offense that can rack up points, play with pace and is overall efficient. I just don't think it happens with Collin commanding a 30% usage rate.

Kind of on JBB to dial Collin back some for the good of the entire offense. Feature him with the 2nd unit more, etc. Rubio/Collin/Windler/Lauri should give Collin enough opportunity to play some minutes as a higher volume scoring threat.