Collin Sexton | The Young Bull

[SVC]

I think this Sexton discussion is about 2 basic groups of fans.

Group 1, sees his 24 point/game and improving assists with poor teammates surrounding him and says he is a near all-star, lets build around him.

Group 2, sees a good scorer that plays offense with blinders on who lacks touch and timing with his passes and says he may never be more than a good scorer on a bad team, let's see if we can get a better team player with more all around game even if we are giving up scoring.

I think most of both groups recognize he lacks court vision on both offense and defense and that his defense is in the lowest third in the NBA.

I’m group 3. I’ve watched similar players put up these years for a few in a row and become seen as valuable.. Beal is horrible at defense and doesn’t win. He’s valuable.

If Colin took some quantum leap, I wouldn’t mind building with him, but I don’t anticipate that. I do anticipate he’s considered a hot commodity at some point who nets a big return. He’s took leaps every year. He needs only one more little leap to be a really prized asset. I want him to be our asset still at that point.

 

[avs2000]

I’m group 3. I’ve watched similar players put up these years for a few in a row and become seen as valuable.. Beal is horrible at defense and doesn’t win. He’s valuable.

If Colin took some quantum leap, I wouldn’t mind building with him, but I don’t anticipate that. I do anticipate he’s considered a hot commodity at some point who nets a big return. He’s took leaps every year. He needs only one more little leap to be a really prized asset. I want him to be our asset still at that point.

Financial issues aside I do not see why we would not want to keep a really prized asset who makes advances in his game every year.
He is not a player that you build around but he certainly can be your #3 of your big three for sure. Anyway, no need to rush a decision on him either in a trade or a new contract. Would like to see if he does make another leap this year and how he plays with allen, mobley all year.

we will see

 

[weepinwillow]

Financial issues aside I do not see why we would not want to keep a really prized asset who makes advances in his game every year.
He is not a player that you build around but he certainly can be your #3 of your big three for sure. Anyway, no need to rush a decision on him either in a trade or a new contract. Would like to see if he does make another leap this year and how he plays with allen, mobley all year.

we will see

There's the rub.
What kind of #1 and #2 do you have that can play well enough without the ball? 29% usage is approaching Steph Curry, Kevin Durant and Lebron James territory. But if you dial back the usage for Collin, you aren't offsetting his defense w/24 PPG anymore. As a 3rd guy, Collin is looking at 21-24% usage, and probably something like 14-16 PPG/2-3 APG.
When you think of how he plays and the demands of the ball within the context of how he plays, you see why people see his best role as a high end second unit scorer and late game closer at times.

 

[J_J]

You saw the pass he made to Lamar Stevens for the game winner.

With more talent now, there will be more opportunities for him to make the right play. Sexton still watches film trying to figure out when to make the pass and where are his players are. I really want to see him how he develops with more talent on the team now.

 

[weepinwillow]

You saw the pass he made to Lamar Stevens for the game winner.

With more talent now, there will be more opportunities for him to make the right play. Sexton still watches film trying to figure out when to make the pass and where are his players are. I really want to see him how he develops with more talent on the team now.

This is similar to what I tell my wife.
"You see how I cleaned the dishes after you made such a good dinner?
If you make more good dinners I will clean the dishes more often. I watch the food network all the time."

 

[Cavatt]

There's the rub.
What kind of #1 and #2 do you have that can play well enough without the ball? 29% usage is approaching Steph Curry, Kevin Durant and Lebron James territory. But if you dial back the usage for Collin, you aren't offsetting his defense w/24 PPG anymore. As a 3rd guy, Collin is looking at 21-24% usage, and probably something like 14-16 PPG/2-3 APG.
When you think of how he plays and the demands of the ball within the context of how he plays, you see why people see his best role as a high end second unit scorer and late game closer at times.

There isn't an example of a 2nd unit guy who scores as well as he does though. So, as bad as people want that, we still need guys on the floor who can score. Plus they just added a scorer who will be the 6th man, in Lauri.

Point take on Colin's usage, but at the beginning of last year, Collin's usage was down and his scoring was up. Once multiple backup pg's went down, and Garland was hurt yeah his usage went up.

You are basically arguing that Collin can't get his when others do, but we know that is simply not true. Garland's best games came when they were both playing well and Collin "just" got 20 or 22. In those spurs games where Garland went ham, Garland score 37 and Collin got 22. In the other one they both scored 29. Even in the Boston game where Love scored 30 to win it, Collin was right there with 28. Same when Okoro scored 32 against the Suns, Collin was right there with 28. He let Okoro lead the charge and was putting the ball in his hands. I have never seen Collin take the ball out of a teammates hands when they were hot. He defers when a guy has it going.

I don't think there is any basis to say that Collin is taking touches from anyone to the detriment of the team. When other guys are hot, he can play a secondary role or also blast out a nice scoring night. If a guy is hot, it seems not to affect him or if anything make his job easier to cruise to a nice scoring night even while being overshadowed.

2 of our best young prospects in Darius and Mobley are playmakers. You need scorers like Collin around those guys.

I mean remember when Kyrie was taking the ball out of our best players hands because his usage was so high? Lowest with Lebron was 29.5. Same year Irving blew Collin's assist numbers away with a 4.7 instead of 4.4 assists. It was the worst of Irving career to be fair.

Kyrie was still one of Lebron's very best teammates because he was able to take advantage of the man's playmaking consistently. I expect something similar from Collin this year as his usage dips, and his teammates are better playmakers.

 

[weepinwillow]

There isn't an example of a 2nd unit guy who scores as well as he does though. So, as bad as people want that, we still need guys on the floor who can score. Plus they just added a scorer who will be the 6th man, in Lauri.

Point take on Colin's usage, but at the beginning of last year, Collin's usage was down and his scoring was up. Once multiple backup pg's went down, and Garland was hurt yeah his usage went up.

You are basically arguing that Collin can't get his when others do, but we know that is simply not true. Garland's best games came when they were both playing well and Collin "just" got 20 or 22. In those spurs games where Garland went ham, Garland score 37 and Collin got 22. In the other one they both scored 29. Even in the Boston game where Love scored 30 to win it, Collin was right there with 28. Same when Okoro scored 32 against the Suns, Collin was right there with 28. He let Okoro lead the charge and was putting the ball in his hands. I have never seen Collin take the ball out of a teammates hands when they were hot. He defers when a guy has it going.

I don't think there is any basis to say that Collin is taking touches from anyone to the detriment of the team. When other guys are hot, he can play a secondary role or also blast out a nice scoring night. If a guy is hot, it seems not to affect him or if anything make his job easier to cruise to a nice scoring night even while being overshadowed.

2 of our best young prospects in Darius and Mobley are playmakers. You need scorers like Collin around those guys.

I mean remember when Kyrie was taking the ball out of our best players hands because his usage was so high? Lowest with Lebron was 29.5. Same year Irving blew Collin's assist numbers away with a 4.7 instead of 4.4 assists. It was the worst of Irving career to be fair.

Kyrie was still one of Lebron's very best teammates because he was able to take advantage of the man's playmaking consistently. I expect something similar from Collin this year as his usage dips, and his teammates are better playmakers.

Appreciate the words here.
I think Lauri is better off the secondary action, with Collin better in space attacking (creating the action), so I see them as better fits together. You can run some offense through Lauri in stretches w/second unit, but I think Collin would flourish more with it.
Kyrie was an ideal running mate for James in that he was a 3 level scorer and otherworldly ball-handler. And they still had a ton of friction playing with each other those 3 seasons w/Kyrie serving as #2 to James' #1.
But what we are talking about is Collin as a #3.
Here's the quote I responded to: He is not a player that you build around but he certainly can be your #3 of your big three for sure.
My opinion is that Collin isn't built as a #3 kind of guy. That's a tough role without a high level floor game and good ability to play consistently off the ball, and/or a really great knock down 3 pointer. However, he's probably not a #2 kind of guy on a good playoff team or a #1 guy on a good playoff team. The role you are talking about above for Collin is your #2 scoring option role, similar to Irving to James/Durant.
I'm with you on the need for scorers off of Mobley and Garland, and maybe this year Collin finds a niche off the ball, but past performance being an indicator of future endeavors says he's less wired for that style of play and more wired as an isolation scoring threat.

 

[ansatsusha80]

 

[Ozone]

I dunno. I'm as big a Sexton fan as anyone, but it is his job to make the correct basketball play and hit the open man. It's their job to make the shot. If he's not making good passes because he doesn't trust the other player to make the shot, then Sexton is in the wrong.

I don't think that's the reason he doesn't pass as much as he should. He just gets tunnel-vision sometimes.

I bet there is a lot of issues as to why he looks to score over making a smart pass a lot of times to an open teammate and I would not be surprised if some of it is simply they don't ever give it back if that is in fact the best play after the first pass etc

 

[ansatsusha80]

delete

 

[ansatsusha80]

 

[ansatsusha80]

 

[ansatsusha80]

 

[J_J]

I’m very curious on how Sexton plays this year. Every year he has improved. @Cavatt made a good point about he defers to the person when that player is on fire. This year we have so much more talent and will give Sexton more spacing and opportunities. Remember he had that bad ankle at one point. I think he’s going to be even better this year.

 

[Kouki]

ngl the thought of pairing barnes with sexton, making them the faces of the franchise, was super tempting to me

all this talk about culture and effort, they would shit culture and effort down everyone's throats