Donovan Mitchell: All-NBA BEST Team

[Jscc]

I don't know how Mitchell getting us the #4 seed in a cutthroat Eastern conference doesn't constitute winning. The #8 seed is in the finals right now. Shooting is the key. Almost everyone on Miami's roster is undersized at their positions, but they have shooting. Replacing Mitchell with Brandon Ingram, Jaylen Brown [please shoot me], or Lauri isn't getting the Cavs to the finals. Surrounding him with shooters will get you where you need to be until DG/Mobley develop though.

 

[macbdog]

Sorry, but this is complete horseshit. Laurie was exactly the same player the day before the trade as he was the day after the trade. He was a top 25/30 player in the league when we traded him. This is like a basic fact about reality, it’s not up for debate. Again, Laurie did not switch bodies and become a different person on the plane from Cleveland to Salt Lake.

Now, if you’re saying that we *didn’t know* he was a top 25/30 player because Koby is dumb and can’t be expected to know the skills of his own players, that’s an argument. Or maybe you’re saying that we can’t use a top 25/30 player in the league because there is no room on this team for a great stretch big, that a stretch big who can shoot 40% from 3 on 8 3PA per game would be *useless* on this team? That’s an argument too I guess…not sure I agree.

The argument folks are making is that it's ok that they traded Lauri because the FO and coaching staff are incompetent. That's it. It's known as The Browns Fan Rationalization that has been trotted out for years with every QB they bypassed, with the excuse 'tHeY NeVEr wOuLd hAVe DoNE tHaT HEre' to justify the team's failures. It's completely assinine, and I er frustrating because the flip side is that it means the same fans think that this same FO and coaching staff can do what Quinn Snyder and Danny Ainge couldn't- build a contender around a ball dominant, undersized combo guard while tasking same combo guard who already failed with a defensive wizard young center once before. It's a re rinse of Utah, with the only hope really being that Garland takes another step forward, takes complete control of the offense, and finds a playoff gear that he hasnt shown so far. I guess in the end it doesn't matter, nothing we can do about it, but it sucks to watch the team squander Mobley, because that's exactly what is going to happen- DM is going to book for home in NY, then Mobley going to head home when the Cavs are a mess after DM leaves/gets dealt for table scraps.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

He didn’t help the team, but they won 7 more games and made the playoffs. The Cavs finished with a better ORTG and DTG than the previous year, all while not making any deadline moves and playing the year without a real SF.

Yes, but we had a much healthier roster than we did last year, our young guys had another year of experience, yet we still came within a game of getting swept in the first round.

I'm not sure that level of improvement is enough to justify an all-in move.

 

[mAo_mAo]

Just what others said, we need shooters around DM. Basically a better version of the Jazz. We have a better Conley and Gobert already with DG and Mobley. Need to round out the roster with more shooting.

Someone of Windler’s physical and skill profile will be a perfect addition. If only this dude isn’t made of glass…Fuck.

 

[dms]

He didn’t help the team, but they won 7 more games and made the playoffs. The Cavs finished with a better ORTG and DTG than the previous year, all while not making any deadline moves and playing the year without a real SF.

They were on the exact same pace the previous year until half the team was in the hospital after the all star break and they collapsed. We had overall amazing team heath this year, none of the top 6 players missed any extended periods of time. Good luck repeating that next year.

 

[foucault87]

When will the we could've kept Lauri discussion die. Its an exercise in futility that people cannot get over. Hes in Utah. Its done. Stop talking about what could've happened and talk about what we can do. Like finding a new coach

 

[HammerGold]

When will the we could've kept Lauri discussion die. Its an exercise in futility that people cannot get over. Hes in Utah. Its done. Stop talking about what could've happened and talk about what we can do. Like finding a new coach

But we aren't replacing the coach

 

[inliner311]

When will the we could've kept Lauri discussion die. Its an exercise in futility that people cannot get over. Hes in Utah. Its done. Stop talking about what could've happened and talk about what we can do. Like finding a new coach

I'll just says just skim over the stuff you don't want to read. Places like this would die if people stop talking about topics that annoy other people. There is only a limited amount of things to talk about in the offseason.

Tons of car forums I use to go on are basically died because too many users would just tell people to search when someone was having a problem than just replying with the answer so at some point the discussions just stopped.

 

[Jscc]

Yes, but we had a much healthier roster than we did last year, our young guys had another year of experience, yet we still came within a game of getting swept in the first round.

I'm not sure that level of improvement is enough to justify an all-in move.

The Cavs and Knicks three-point shooting in that series was essentially equal [NY's 42 made 3s to CLE's 50]. It came down to rebounding. NY won that battle 227-186. The team that won the game's rebounding battle won the game. Cavs won it in game 2 and lost it in the other games. Rebounding is something you can clean up. Though I'm not sure this is possible under JBB. The lack of fundamentals was pretty apparent. How many times have we raged about the lack of boxing out in the game threads all season? I see these undersized teams like Golden State and Miami crashing the boards. They are being taught to do it and how to do it effectively. I see Kyle Lowry boxing out Robert Williams or Love collecting 12 rebounds. It's infuriating.

Regardless, the final score in 3 of the 5 losses was still within 11. A few more threes and it's a different series. You can't clean up the three point shooting like you can rebounding. That's why it should be the focus. It will get the team where it needs to be imo.

 

[HammerGold]

The Cavs and Knicks three-point shooting in that series was essentially equal [NY's 42 made 3s to CLE's 50]. It came down to rebounding. NY won that battle 227-186. The team that won the game's rebounding battle won the game. Cavs won it in game 2 and lost it in the other games. Rebounding is something you can clean up. Though I'm not sure this is possible under JBB. The lack of fundamentals was pretty apparent. How many times have we raged about the lack of boxing out in the game threads all season? I see these undersized teams like Golden State and Miami crashing the boards. They are being taught to do it and how to do it effectively. I see Kyle Lowry boxing out Robert Williams or Love collecting 12 rebounds. It's infuriating.

Regardless, the final score in 3 of the 5 losses was still within 11. A few more threes and it's a different series. You can't clean up the three point shooting like you can rebounding. That's why it should be the focus. It will get the team where it needs to be imo.

It was a consequence of JBBs gameplan. He constantly had JA leaving the paint and picking up Brunson in mid range. Terrible gameplan and never adjusted

 

[cavsfever]

You guys do realize that a top 25/30 player is basically at least an All-Star, right? Or at the very least, a young, ascending player who is a fringe All-Star. Without including this past season (though I realize that’s not going to be possible), I’d love to see you list of top 25/30 players to see who you had ahead of Lauri and who you had behind him. Feel free to collaborate with @BigZ94, because that most certainly is not a ‘basic fact about reality.’ It’s completely made up.

Before landing in Utah Lauri wasn’t a “stretch big who can shoot 40% from 3 on 8 3PA per game.” He was a big that shot 36% or less from 3 on about 6 attempts in 4/5 seasons prior to Utah and played in 61 or fewer games in 4/5 seasons.

It 100% is a basic fact about reality. Again, LAURIE WAS THE SAME PERSON THE DAY BEFORE THE TRADE AS THE DAY AFTER. Are you seriously suggesting that there was some mystical body snatchers shit and he was somehow replaced with a different all star calibre player after the trade?

What you seem to be suggesting is that “before the trade, I, @Bob_The_Cat, an anonymous RCF poster, didn’t see Laurie’s potential to be the player he currently is based on checking out his basketball reference profile and watching a couple of games last year, and therefore Koby Altman professional GM could never have been expected to see it either”. I don’t accept that. It’s Kobys job to see that potential and understand the value of his players. If he didn’t do that he fucked up badly.

That’s especially true in this case since there was plenty of evidence in Laurie’s career of this potential. Like, for example, the year before he came to Cleveland he shot 40% from 3 on 8 three point attempts per 36 minutes played…so it was impossible to tell he had this potential? Watching him this summer you couldn’t tell he could make a leap?

I guess I’ll drop this now but it drives me nuts that people seem so invested in making excuses for Koby by denying the obvious. Like, if you’re a GM assessing player potential is your entire full time job that you’re paid millions for so “oh, no one could have known this player was good” is BS

 

[inliner311]

That’s especially true in this case since there was plenty of evidence in Laurie’s career of this potential. Like, for example, the year before he came to Cleveland he shot 40% from 3 on 8 three point attempts per 36 minutes played…so it was impossible to tell he had this potential? Watching him this summer you couldn’t tell he could make a leap?

One thing I'll add to this is for a team that touts offseason progress and hinting that almost every young player is going to make a leap, to miss when a player actually makes that leap is a true failure.

 

[Bob_The_Cat]

It 100% is a basic fact about reality. Again, LAURIE WAS THE SAME PERSON THE DAY BEFORE THE TRADE AS THE DAY AFTER. Are you seriously suggesting that there was some mystical body snatchers shit and he was somehow replaced with a different all star calibre player after the trade?

What you seem to be suggesting is that “before the trade, I, @Bob_The_Cat, an anonymous RCF poster, didn’t see Laurie’s potential to be the player he currently is based on checking out his basketball reference profile and watching a couple of games last year, and therefore Koby Altman professional GM could never have been expected to see it either”. I don’t accept that. It’s Kobys job to see that potential and understand the value of his players. If he didn’t do that he fucked up badly.

That’s especially true in this case since there was plenty of evidence in Laurie’s career of this potential. Like, for example, the year before he came to Cleveland he shot 40% from 3 on 8 three point attempts per 36 minutes played…so it was impossible to tell he had this potential? Watching him this summer you couldn’t tell he could make a leap?

I guess I’ll drop this now but it drives me nuts that people seem so invested in making excuses for Koby by denying the obvious. Like, if you’re a GM assessing player potential is your entire full time job that you’re paid millions for so “oh, no one could have known this player was good” is BS

I'm so confused. Do you not understand that when guys are put into different situations, on different teams, with more opportunity, they sometimes play better (or worse) depending on fit, style of play, personnel, etc? Just one year earlier, teams around the league saw so much potential in Lauri (after shooting 40% from 3, mind you) that all the Bulls could get for him was Derrick Jones Jr and a lotto protected-pick.

All I'm asking for is your pre-season list for the 22-23 season of your top 30 players in the NBA. I'd like to see where Lauri shakes out in the group and who isn't on the list. It's something I kind of figured you'd already have done and would be easy to produce.

By the way, I'm not making excuses for Koby, I just think the Lauri / Mitchell discussion is pretty dumb. Seems like you do, too.

Game Thread | Game #38 | Bulls @ Cavs | Jan. 2, 2023

Mitchell scored or assisted on 99 points. The most since Wilt's 100 point game.

realcavsfans.com

I do definitely agree (and how could you not after tonight, but it showed even earlier this year) that Mitchell has turned out to be that kind of special championship-level superstar that a top team needs. At another level. Lauri is not that clearly, but what a complementary player he’s showing himself to be.

But it’s water under the bridge now, and a superstar is the hardest part of a top team to get. We got us one.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I don't know how Mitchell getting us the #4 seed in a cutthroat Eastern conference doesn't constitute winning. The #8 seed is in the finals right now. Shooting is the key. Almost everyone on Miami's roster is undersized at their positions, but they have shooting. Replacing Mitchell with Brandon Ingram, Jaylen Brown [please shoot me], or Lauri isn't getting the Cavs to the finals. Surrounding him with shooters will get you where you need to be until DG/Mobley develop though.

The issue is that the assets we gave up in that trade are precisely the kind of assets/cap space we could have used to add the shooting we need.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I'm so confused. Do you not understand that when guys are put into different situations, on different teams, with more opportunity, they sometimes play better (or worse) depending on fit, style of play, personnel, etc? Just one year earlier, teams around the league saw so much potential in Lauri (after shooting 40% from 3, mind you) that all the Bulls could get for him was Derrick Jones Jr and a lotto protected-pick.

All I'm asking for is your pre-season list for the 22-23 season of your top 30 players in the NBA. I'd like to see where Lauri shakes out in the group and who isn't on the list. It's something I kind of figured you'd already have done and would be easy to produce.

By the way, I'm not making excuses for Koby, I just think the Lauri / Mitchell discussion is pretty dumb. Seems like you do, too.

Game Thread | Game #38 | Bulls @ Cavs | Jan. 2, 2023

Mitchell scored or assisted on 99 points. The most since Wilt's 100 point game.

realcavsfans.com

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The GM is supposed to know more and be a better evaluator of a player's potential than are fans.

What is the better way to judge the merits of a trade - by how we fans evaluated the players at the time, or by the results? The same with judging a GM - is it better to judge him by how well his actions synced with the opinions of fans at the time he took his actions, or by the ultimate results of that trade?