Early 22 GM Thread! (Trade Ideas here)

[hockeyjohn]

Disagree with this biased assessment..

Why is it biased? Why do you think your opinion is more valuable than another? What arrogance you have my friend. This trade would severely weaken the bullpen by moving Clase. Two 3B prospects are not needed (Groshans and Hildago). 2 more 40 man roster spots would need to be added for the trade return which makes the 40 man roster issues much tougher.

I do not know why you are unable to handle opinions different from yours. Most people here are able to disagree and carry on a civil conversation. You should try the same.

 

[hockeyjohn]

Disagree with this biased assessment..

Why is it biased? Why do you think your opinion is more valuable than another? What arrogance you have my friend. This trade would severely weaken the bullpen by moving Clase. Two 3B prospects are not needed (Groshans and Hildago). 2 more 40 man roster spots would need to be added for the trade return which makes the 40 man roster issues much tougher.

I do not know why you are unable to handle opinions different from yours. Most people here are able to disagree and carry on a civil conversation. You should try the same.

Sorry that this posted twice.

 

[Gson]

Why is it biased? Why do you think your opinion is more valuable than another? What arrogance you have my friend. This trade would severely weaken the bullpen by moving Clase. Two 3B prospects are not needed (Groshans and Hildago). 2 more 40 man roster spots would need to be added for the trade return which makes the 40 man roster issues much tougher.

I do not know why you are unable to handle opinions different from yours. Most people here are able to disagree and carry on a civil conversation. You should try the same.

the only part of your comments that are truthful..

No value on the opinion rendered is considered for value, higher lower or the same.. You are welcome to continue to be biased. Your arrogance, & it is YOUR arrogance, is founded in assumptions not offered by anyone other than yourself.. If JRam is traded.. two 3B prospects ARE of value..if he's not.. then they have less value to the current club.. Either way.. they have value. You don't know or care what anyone else believes.. 40 Man roster decisions have about the sixth priority in reconstructing this roster.. This is as it relates to a reason to make or not make a decision..

You dont' speak for most people.. and you certainly don't know or can project what is the same or what are different opinions when you have no idea what is being thought..

The conversation is civil..

Do or do not.. there is no try..

Every time a comment is offered from you.. you're all about how you can prove someone else wrong.. Your pendantic condescending line of half truths and out right lies have become tedious..

 

[Gson]

When you look at all the factors Gson, trading JRam for anything less than a windfall just doesn't make sense. New name. New era. New minority owner. Young, inexpensive rotation that is very good. A good young core. A farm system about to bust at the seems. New lease with millions towards renovations. They are looking to do something big in Cleveland and unless the return for JRam makes this team significantly and immediately better than keeping him it ain't gonna happen IMO. I'm all for dealing him for an overpay that again, improves this team immediately, but what are the chances of that?

Make no mistake..I do want at least fair value.. more than that.. and it's just better for the club. What is absolutely unwanted is less than market value.. That is only possible if the Guards hold onto him.. no extension.. and, for what ever reason, his performance flags.. The return at that point becomes pretty sad in comparison..

Any deal involving JRam has to improve the club in the aggregate. Because neither of us can evaluate the actual results at this time.. being equal or better in 2022 is the bare minimum. The return, in the event of a trade may be seen in two or three spots as opposed to a single player.. e.g. a hitting catcher and a corner outfielder who can immmediately contribute? We agree 110 % on this..

The new lease and the improvements are going to be nice if the amount of money being spent is what they're saying it's going to be.. (the loss of those "shipping container"?) I don't know what is being considered other than that.. we'll see..

The chances of an overpay are buoyed by the rumors being bandied about that the original assessment that a work stoppage over the CBA was more than likely.. It is now being stated that a work stoppage is going to be highly unlikely with significant progress being made on all areas of the CBA.. IDK about this with any degree of certainty, but, the details seem more hopeful than real..

 

[CDAV45]

Make no mistake..I do want at least fair value.. more than that.. and it's just better for the club. What is absolutely unwanted is less than market value.. That is only possible if the Guards hold onto him.. no extension.. and, for what ever reason, his performance flags.. The return at that point becomes pretty sad in comparison..

Any deal involving JRam has to improve the club in the aggregate. Because neither of us can evaluate the actual results at this time.. being equal or better in 2022 is the bare minimum. The return, in the event of a trade may be seen in two or three spots as opposed to a single player.. e.g. a hitting catcher and a corner outfielder who can immmediately contribute? We agree 110 % on this..

The new lease and the improvements are going to be nice if the amount of money being spent is what they're saying it's going to be.. (the loss of those "shipping container"?) I don't know what is being considered other than that.. we'll see..

The chances of an overpay are buoyed by the rumors being bandied about that the original assessment that a work stoppage over the CBA was more than likely.. It is now being stated that a work stoppage is going to be highly unlikely with significant progress being made on all areas of the CBA.. IDK about this with any degree of certainty, but, the details seem more hopeful than real..

I will not rule out anything and I would certainly entertain any and all offers, but I also know that my expectations are damn near impossible and at the very least improbable. There have been prior discussions about Jose and his willingness and desire to stay in Cleveland. On the chance that a deal cannot be agreed upon I would then be more inclined to trade him. Right now that would be inclination has no grounds.

I recall a few years back when Paul Dolan told us that he would spend when the time was right. That begs the question, is the time right? They used the 21 season to assess what they have and I think the needs have been revealed. So what's the play now? I so want the post season to end so the unknown can be revealed over the winter.

Edited to say this. JRam had a fantastic season and it was this team's worst since 2011 I believe. If nothing else is intended to be done other than extending JRam, then I'd rather they trade him. I truly don't believe that will be the case, but I just wanted to "put that out there". I'm not one for half-assed efforts.

 

[sportscoach]

@Gson

JRam by himself is a 6+ WAR type of player... All the trades posted on paper may get us 3 (maybe 4) WAR at best since you keep getting unproven guys at the MLB level. Most of the players actually don't even have MLB time. The team is going backwards in an area they don't have production in to begin with. No trade right now can improve this team in 22 by trading JRam. That is a fact and there is no way around it. We trade JRam, we lose 100% of the time in 22. Beyond 22 it's possible we improve, but we go backwards in 22 without JRam if we trade him.

Then you add in Clase, who is close to 3 WAR himself in that deal... You cannot trade 9 WAR in players and ever expect to go forward as an organization in that same season... we are going backwards and we aren't rebuilding so why in the F would you trade your All-Star 3B and an All-star looking closer for prospects?

Now looking at the trade proposal... Clase and JRam for Guirrel, Moreno, Pearson, Groshans and Hiraldo... Not the worst idea at least, but I don't think Toronto is willing to do it. Toronto needs SPs and wouldn't moving Pearson do the opposite since he's a top 15 rated prospect. I want nothing to do with Hiraldo as well...

@CDAV45

Hernandez is the better bat of the two players but Guirrel is way way more versatile of a player and can play multiple positions. He has played nearly everywhere on the Diamond and is better defensively than Hernandez as well. Guirrel is also at the current moment a way better player than Naylor, they actually don't even compare... I'd trade those two straight up for each other in a heartbeat and not think twice...

 

[sportscoach]

@hockeyjohn

I am on your side in this argument, but sometimes people just don't see their actions I guess...

 

[sportscoach]

@CDAV45 @Gson

I have an odd proposal for ya, I posted it on the trade value site as well...

Plesac + Johnson to the Jays for OF Guirrel Jr., Util Otto Lopez, C Reese McGuire, RHP Hoglund, SS/3B/LF Kevin Smith...

Why would I do this... Toronto needs pitching so Plesac wouldn't be a bad option at all for them. Johnson is a thrown in but has a minor league option and upside/potential.

Guardians need some hitting Guirrel is a proven MLB hitter that can play multiple positions... Lopez and Smith are two guys who just cracked the Blue Jays roster in 21, but both have good minor league numbers and kind of blocked in a sense in 22... McGuire I know doesn't do any offense, but is a pre-arb Catcher with MLB experience and can play some solid defense. Now splits actually aren't bad, he's always been at least decent against RH pitching (.278/.329/.431 career). Hoglund has a rated 60 control with a 6'4 frame... I think the Guardians can enhance him a bit...

 

[CATS44]

We already have a situation over filled with position players that are unproven at the MLB level... plus proven to be bad at the MLB level...all being pushed by prospects that need to be protected or lost.

We don't need one more. We especially do not need to move one or more of our few proven MLB players for more.

What we need is more real MLB players with some track record of significant success to go with those few we have.

In the past few years we've added multiple young high upside unproven MLBers that many now want to dump.

Amed...65 FV
Gimenez...50 FV
Naylor ..50 FV
Allen...45 FV

Continuing to rotate thru unproven MLBers is not a recipe for success, unless we mix in some more than merely competent veterans.

 

[Gson]

@CDAV45 @Gson

I have an odd proposal for ya, I posted it on the trade value site as well...

Plesac + Johnson to the Jays for OF Guirrel Jr., Util Otto Lopez, C Reese McGuire, RHP Hoglund, SS/3B/LF Kevin Smith...

Why would I do this... Toronto needs pitching so Plesac wouldn't be a bad option at all for them. Johnson is a thrown in but has a minor league option and upside/potential.

Guardians need some hitting Guirrel is a proven MLB hitter that can play multiple positions... Lopez and Smith are two guys who just cracked the Blue Jays roster in 21, but both have good minor league numbers and kind of blocked in a sense in 22... McGuire I know doesn't do any offense, but is a pre-arb Catcher with MLB experience and can play some solid defense. Now splits actually aren't bad, he's always been at least decent against RH pitching (.278/.329/.431 career). Hoglund has a rated 60 control with a 6'4 frame... I think the Guardians can enhance him a bit...

responded to at that site..

 

[CATS44]

Johnson has no trade value...nada, zip, nil.

In six weeks he can be picked up for the waiver fee...or even less.

Plesac
Plesac+Johnson
Plesac+Johnson+Harold
Plesac+bag of balls

All of the above are basically the same thing, although the latter has the most value.

 

[hockeyjohn]

the only part of your comments that are truthful..

No value on the opinion rendered is considered for value, higher lower or the same.. You are welcome to continue to be biased. Your arrogance, & it is YOUR arrogance, is founded in assumptions not offered by anyone other than yourself.. If JRam is traded.. two 3B prospects ARE of value..if he's not.. then they have less value to the current club.. Either way.. they have value. You don't know or care what anyone else believes.. 40 Man roster decisions have about the sixth priority in reconstructing this roster.. This is as it relates to a reason to make or not make a decision..

You dont' speak for most people.. and you certainly don't know or can project what is the same or what are different opinions when you have no idea what is being thought..

The conversation is civil..

Do or do not.. there is no try..

Every time a comment is offered from you.. you're all about how you can prove someone else wrong.. Your pendantic condescending line of half truths and out right lies have become tedious..

I never said I spoke for most people. I have my thoughts and opinions. You do not speak for most people. Your have your thoughts and opinions. My thoughts are not more valuable than yours, but YOURS ARE NOT more valuable than mine. To think yours is worth more is your arrogance showing through. I am done commenting as you are not worth wasting my time with when you are incapable of having a baseball discussion.

 

[Gson]

I never said I spoke for most people. I have my thoughts and opinions. You do not speak for most people. Your have your thoughts and opinions. My thoughts are not more valuable than yours, but YOURS ARE NOT more valuable than mine. To think yours is worth more is your arrogance showing through. I am done commenting as you are not worth wasting my time with when you are incapable of having a baseball discussion.

Strawman arguments.... <=== you show just how weak you are.. You "make up" comments on whose comment is more valuable than others.. It just shows how biased and arrogant you are..

incapable?.. pffft..

Try to listen... to anyone.. once in a while.. you might find some "value" that way..

 

[CATS44]

Food for thought.

In 588 PAs this year, Amed was worth 2.7 fWAR.

In 524 PAs, Lindor was worth 2.7 fWAR. Pro rated to 588 PAs, that would rise to 3.0 fWAR.

In 342 career PAs, Gimenez has been worth 1.6 fWAR. Pro rated to 588 PAs, that would rise to 2.8 fWAR.

 

[Gson]

Food for thought.

In 588 PAs this year, Amed was worth 2.7 fWAR.

In 524 PAs, Lindor was worth 2.7 fWAR. Pro rated to 588 PAs, that would rise to 3.0 fWAR.

In 342 career PAs, Gimenez has been worth 1.6 fWAR. Pro rated to 588 PAs, that would rise to 2.8 fWAR.

so.. pretty close..

as long as salary is not considered into the evaluation..