Early 22 GM Thread! (Trade Ideas here)

[CATS44]

I like the rob Peter to pay Paul analogy...and it pertains to any trade of Plesac that does not significantly upgrade the team.

The Indians did that for thirty years after the Colavito and Cash trades dismembered the offense.

But the present situation is nowhere near what it was back then. We HAD to trade MLB assets to get MLB assets in return back then. We don't have to do that today. We have a treasure trove of prospects to use in trades.

I'm not against acquiring either Hernandez or Gurriel, esp Hernandez. But not if it requires any of our core players or rotation pieces.

But if we are talking prospects for MLB upgrade...and if the cost in prospects is nearly the same...there are better options on teams that are a better fit. Ketel Marte is one.

 

[sportscoach]

I like the rob Peter to pay Paul analogy...and it pertains to any trade of Plesac that does not significantly upgrade the team.

The Indians did that for thirty years after the Colavito and Cash trades dismembered the offense.

But the present situation is nowhere near what it was back then. We HAD to trade MLB assets to get MLB assets in return back then. We don't have to do that today. We have a treasure trove of prospects to use in trades.

I'm not against acquiring either Hernandez or Gurriel, esp Hernandez. But not if it requires any of our core players or rotation pieces.

But if we are talking prospects for MLB upgrade...and if the cost in prospects is nearly the same...there are better options on teams that are a better fit. Ketel Marte is one.

Can't we do both? Trade Plesac for a MLB bat plus prospects and trade prospects for another MLB bat? I would actually personally attempt to get a Bassitt as well from the A's (and try to extend him). Bassitt went to Akron U and honestly getting him to the playoffs and maybe a World Series in his hometown team, I think that would be a great story overall.

If you told me my rotation in 22-24 was Bieber, Bassitt, Civale, TMac, Quantrill and my lineup had Marte and Gurriel added.. Would you not think we would have a legit chance to get back to the World Series? Bassitt is available and so is Marte at the right price. Gurriel could be had for Plesac... it's not 100% unreasonable it could happen.

 

[Gson]

Can't we do both? Trade Plesac for a MLB bat plus prospects and trade prospects for another MLB bat? I would actually personally attempt to get a Bassitt as well from the A's (and try to extend him). Bassitt went to Akron U and honestly getting him to the playoffs and maybe a World Series in his hometown team, I think that would be a great story overall.

If you told me my rotation in 22-24 was Bieber, Bassitt, Civale, TMac, Quantrill and my lineup had Marte and Gurriel added.. Would you not think we would have a legit chance to get back to the World Series? Bassitt is available and so is Marte at the right price. Gurriel could be had for Plesac... it's not 100% unreasonable it could happen.

Absolutely.. the return of two corner OF'ers, a catcher that can hit... a more dependable 1B and an LHRP with at least some ML experience.. would make this club equal or superior to the CWSox..

Gurriel Jr.. had a great year.. his value is waaaaay up & it should be..
Kyle Schwarber.. the Schwar-banbino.. will cost even more.. but hits great at Progressive Field.. so did Eddie as a Twin..
Bryan Reynolds.. is all but untouchable.. save for a massive overpay.. and then some..
Mitch Haniger.. checks off some boxes.. and has a lot of friends in his outfield.. could be a good target..
Jesse Winker.. checks off fewer boxes.. & had a 'career year' in the Queen City..
Joc Pederson.. has had a great post season and can offer a lot of power..
Clint Frazier will be dirt cheap.. for good reason.. Non Roster Invitee after he's DFA'd?
Anthony Santander plays for the Orioles... is talented but plays for the Orioles..
Ian Happ.. had an off season.. but is young enough to be considered coachable.. should be cheap
Ketel Marte will be shopped or overshopped this winter.. helluva talent..
Lars Nootbaar/Tommy Edman... offer versatility and talent.. but at what price..

All of these teams have "prospect" capital that they can spend in addition to the ML OF'ers..

Thoughts?..

 

[CATS44]

The exercise is to fit everything into a $70 mil payroll...lol.

At $70 mil, there is about $15 mil to pay upgrades. With limited financial resources, the FO can't afford a mistake that cripples the org for years to come. We also want to look past 2022, although the focus has to be on 2022. Plus we have to get the most bang for the buck.

Unless we want to unload our entire farm system...which I am unwilling to do..$15 mil means two significant upgrades at best.

Bassitt is not enough of an upgrade to spend on a rental. Is he better than Plesac? He's better than this years Plesac. But not $8 mil and three years of control better. Adding Bassitt for prospects eats up half our financial and prospect capital without addressing a need.

If we are gonna trade for a pitcher and then add a bat, a trade of Plesac plus prospects plus money for Laureano and Montas makes much more sense.

The math goes like this...

Laureano...$3 mil
Montas......$5 mil
Andrus.......$7 mil (We are not gonna play Andrus)

Bassitt........$9 mil
Gurriel.........$5 mil

But we have two years of Montas and three years of Laureano vs one year of Bassitt and three years of Gurriel.

Laureano is a far better player than Gurriel, esp fielding, running, and throwing. Montas is at least as good a pitcher as Bassitt.

A trade for Laureano and Montas makes us better this year, and far better in 2023 and 2024, than two trades for Bassitt and Gurriel.

 

[CATS44]

If we don't make a trade with Oakland or we don't make a four for one trade with somebody else before the R5, Oakland is gonna get some of our players anyway. They are gonna have nearly a dozen openings on their 40 man, and they have already shed four players.

 

[Gson]

If we don't make a trade with Oakland or we don't make a four for one trade with somebody else before the R5, Oakland is gonna get some of our players anyway. They are gonna have nearly a dozen openings on their 40 man, and they have already shed four players.

It's a good thing for the Rule V cast offs... being able to hook on elsewhere.. they weren't going to play here...

 

[Montgo]

Can't we do both? Trade Plesac for a MLB bat plus prospects and trade prospects for another MLB bat? I would actually personally attempt to get a Bassitt as well from the A's (and try to extend him). Bassitt went to Akron U and honestly getting him to the playoffs and maybe a World Series in his hometown team, I think that would be a great story overall.

If you told me my rotation in 22-24 was Bieber, Bassitt, Civale, TMac, Quantrill and my lineup had Marte and Gurriel added.. Would you not think we would have a legit chance to get back to the World Series? Bassitt is available and so is Marte at the right price. Gurriel could be had for Plesac... it's not 100% unreasonable it could happen.

This is the correct answer. Go get Gurriel and Happ and put a legit lineup out there for the first time in 4 years.

The robbing Peter to pay Paul analogy doesn’t really fit the Indians situation. They need a hitter like Gurriel way more than they need 5 above average SP’s. Their offense stinks and you can’t win without being able to hit.

The days of building a championship team around a deep SP staff are fading into the rear view mirror. Sure, it might help you win a few more games in the regular season, but it’s not how you win in the post season. The Indians need to build a roster accordingly.

I’m not a huge fan of Plesac. He’s been ok outside of his abbreviated 2020 season. It also sounds like the organization is not highly fond of his personality/behavior. The Indians can win games next year with a staff led Bieber/Quantrill/Civale/Tmac. But they need to hit way better no matter what. Plesac is the guy to move for a quality bat.

 

[DCTribefan]

I think we need to forget guys like our fringe outfielders as having any kind of trade value...other than throw ins that don't move any needle. Guys like we have can be picked up late in the winter as NRIs.

I agree that Hernandez' BABIP may not be sustainable, but if you look at his peripherals over his entire career, he hits the ball very hard, with solid launch angle and barrel percentage. He has a low GB rate and a high hard %. All that makes his BABIP more sustainable than most.

On the other hand, Gurriel is a 2 fWAR player. There just isn't enough there to be considered a significant upgrade. Get him for low cost, fine. For any package that includes Plesac, no.

There are a lot of OFs that are just as good that can be had for less. I'd rather have Slater or Yaz from the Giants.

*********

Back to Laureano for a moment.

What would trading him and dumping Andrus contract mean for Oakland? It would mean that the savings would allow them to keep all three of their top SPs...Montas, Manaea, and Bassitt. Or two of them and Chapman.

The expanded idea earlier...Plasec and multiple prospects for Montas and Laureano....if we took on Andrus contract...would mean that Oakland could retain the rest of its core....Manaea, Bassitt, Chapman, and Olson...while retaining a very strong rotation and filling in its present other needs, and stocking its dreadful farm system.

Such a move would blow the entire budget I have for upgrades, but we would have an even better rotation for 2022 and our outfield upgrade.

Might be worth a read before going too far down the trade with Oakland narrative. Note Oakland’s #3 prospect is a MIF likely to be at MLB level next season.

Expectations rising for these A's prospects

After going through what most outsiders viewed as a down period, the A’s farm system is forming a notable crop of young prospects who should make an impact at the big league level in the near future. Though the overall system still ranks in the lower third of the league,

www.mlb.com

 

[Gson]

Might be worth a read before going too far down the trade with Oakland narrative. Note Oakland’s #3 prospect is a MIF likely to be at MLB level next season.

Expectations rising for these A's prospects

After going through what most outsiders viewed as a down period, the A’s farm system is forming a notable crop of young prospects who should make an impact at the big league level in the near future. Though the overall system still ranks in the lower third of the league,

www.mlb.com

...you'll see at every MLB site, the three great prospects and the two additional breakout prospects today.. pretty good stories on most..

 

[CATS44]

Might be worth a read before going too far down the trade with Oakland narrative. Note Oakland’s #3 prospect is a MIF likely to be at MLB level next season.

Expectations rising for these A's prospects

After going through what most outsiders viewed as a down period, the A’s farm system is forming a notable crop of young prospects who should make an impact at the big league level in the near future. Though the overall system still ranks in the lower third of the league,

www.mlb.com

That article is from a web site akin to the multiple sites that follow the Indians/Guardians, like Factory of Sadness...where every kid in the system is on the brink of sure fire stardom.

Their farm system is thin overall and nearly barren at the top.

At the moment, their...

2B...Kemp
SS...Andrus
CF...Laureano
RF...Piscotty
LF...Pinder
DH...Seth Brown

Outside of Luis Barrera, a no hit, good glove CF, there are no highly rated prospects immediately behind them.

Chang, Arias, Mercado, and maybe Zimmer would be upgrades over what they have right now..and cheaper with longer control. Almost any of our upper tier R5 eligible prospects would be better than what they have right now.

They are stuck with Andrus and Piscotty ($7.5 each), and they will have to pay Pinder and Kemp a total of $6 mil in arby.

 

[sportscoach]

My want for Bassitt is more of a PR/wanting to bring the local kid home to get a championship in a sense... I would put good money on his next two-three seasons being Cy Young type of seasons...

 

[CATS44]

But we won't have him past 2022.

 

[sportscoach]

But we won't have him past 2022.

I would get him an extension honestly... it may be a pipeline dream, but last one I had wanted was Verlander and he had a great season for Houston lol

 

[DCTribefan]

That article is from a web site akin to the multiple sites that follow the Indians/Guardians, like Factory of Sadness...where every kid in the system is on the brink of sure fire stardom.

Their farm system is thin overall and nearly barren at the top.

At the moment, their...

2B...Kemp
SS...Andrus
CF...Laureano
RF...Piscotty
LF...Pinder
DH...Seth Brown

Outside of Luis Barrera, a no hit, good glove CF, there are no highly rated prospects immediately behind them.

Chang, Arias, Mercado, and maybe Zimmer would be upgrades over what they have right now..and cheaper with longer control. Almost any of our upper tier R5 eligible prospects would be better than what they have right now.

They are stuck with Andrus and Piscotty ($7.5 each), and they will have to pay Pinder and Kemp a total of $6 mil in arby.

Ok, so we disregard other teams’ fan sites but take your assessments as the gospel. Okay, got it.

 

[FFRva]

Started to kind of go into this in the minor league thread but just curious as to how people would feel overall on if this FO does somewhat of a similar approach this coming season that they had this past year as far as gauging their internal talent but still being a competitive ball team (which we would have been without the injuries to the rotation). At this point I'm starting to think I'd love one addition to the lineup most likely in RF and then maybe a bullpen arm and then to let things organically work themselves out. Let some internal options duke out LF whether it be Ahmed, Kwan/OGon and if that fails plug in fully healthy Naylor or Palacios and then at 2B let the guys who ended the season sort out and if that doesn't seem to be working plug in someone like Palacios, Freeman, Arias (I really don't like Arias at 2B long term, I'm hoping left of the infield or possibly OF long term). I guess if no major trades happen we will see Palacios, Arias, Jones next year and a chance we could see Rocchio, Freeman, Valera, and if protected one of Kwan and OGon. Would this approach disappoint you? If so how much and could you elaborate on it?