Early 22 GM Thread! (Trade Ideas here)

[sportscoach]

I'm not taking sides on this argument because I think both angles are partially right.....or wrong.

What I will debate is the idea that trading JRam takes the Guardians out of contention. You simply cannot state anything of the sort accurately without knowing the return. At the same time you could be correct.

My stance on a JRam trade is determined by possibly extending him along with putting better players around him because JRam by himself won't get it done if you haven't noticed. If an agreement cannot be reached then 2 yrs of JRam is extremely more valuable to someone than 1 yr, but we've been down this road before with other players. For the record, I hope they extend him and build a team he can win a WS with.

The teams that want JRam are going to be contenders so they aren't going to offer up a ton of MLB talent so how are we going to replace 6 WAR in one player when majority of the roster may have less than 6 career WAR? Essentially we could somehow manage, but we would have to have everything on paper go right, no injuries, guys meeting prospect potentials etc... trading JRam is too big of a risk to trade in a year we are supposed to try to contend... How much WAR production does this team have without JRam?

 

[CDAV45]

The teams that want JRam are going to be contenders so they aren't going to offer up a ton of MLB talent so how are we going to replace 6 WAR in one player when majority of the roster may have less than 6 career WAR? Essentially we could somehow manage, but we would have to have everything on paper go right, no injuries, guys meeting prospect potentials etc... trading JRam is too big of a risk to trade in a year we are supposed to try to contend... How much WAR production does this team have without JRam?

How do you know what they're offering? The only thing we know in all of this is that it takes more than Jose Ramirez to win anything. Hell, it takes more than Jose Ramirez to stay above .500.

You have to have everything on paper go right regardless of the personnel and I don't know how much WAR production this team has without JRam without knowing what the return is. Neither do you. Twist it however you like, but it doesn't change the fact that you don't know.

 

[sportscoach]

How do you know what they're offering? The only thing we know in all of this is that it takes more than Jose Ramirez to win anything. Hell, it takes more than Jose Ramirez to stay above .500.

You have to have everything on paper go right regardless of the personnel and I don't know how much WAR production this team has without JRam without knowing what the return is. Neither do you. Twist it however you like, but it doesn't change the fact that you don't know.

I was talking about proven MLB WAR, aka proven MLB hitters/players...

My main point is if we trade JRam we put this team backwards not forward in 22...

If we trade JRam, it won't be to a rebuilding team, it will be a playoff contender. Which playoff contender can give up a 2+ proven WAR MLB player and still be fine... Almost none will offer that since they want to add to the lineup.

Then the next question I posted, what's the point of adding a Happ or someone with less than three years of control if we trade JRam... there isn't any to be honest. We will have so much unproven MLB talent. Yes we will get a ton of talent, but most of it will be MLB unproven talent... building around JRam's is this teams best ticket into the playoffs and more right now....

 

[CATS44]

We are now into our second year of JRam trade speculation.

We are into our second year of insisting that this team cannot compete without multiple position super stars to go with JRam.

As long as we have a healthy, elite rotation and an elite closer to go with JRam, we will compete.

 

[CATS44]

A trade for Reynolds will cost us two of our top five and two more of our top ten.

Something like Espino, Jones/Arias, Martinez, and Naylor.

Pittsburgh lists ten and takes one. We pull back three. They pick another, we pull back three. The get the last two. We may throw in a MLB OF that can play this year, like Zimmer.

So, they list...

Espino, Valera, Rocchio, Freeman, Jones, Arias, Naylor, Williams, Martinez, Hankins.

They pick Espino.

We pull back Valera, Rocchio, and Freeman.

They pick Jones.

We pull back Arias, Williams, and Hankins.

They get Naylor and Martinez.

Thats a trade I would make today, tomorrow, and next week.

 

[Benway]

Jose is our Ernie Banks.
The Cubs never traded Ernie Banks!

 

[BimboColesHair]

A trade for Reynolds will cost us two of our top five and two more of our top ten.

Something like Espino, Jones/Arias, Martinez, and Naylor.

Pittsburgh lists ten and takes one. We pull back three. They pick another, we pull back three. The get the last two. We may throw in a MLB OF that can play this year, like Zimmer.

So, they list...

Espino, Valera, Rocchio, Freeman, Jones, Arias, Naylor, Williams, Martinez, Hankins.

They pick Espino.

We pull back Valera, Rocchio, and Freeman.

They pick Jones.

We pull back Arias, Williams, and Hankins.

They get Naylor and Martinez.

Thats a trade I would make today, tomorrow, and next week.

You’d be hung up on pretty quickly if that was your offer.

 

[sportscoach]

A trade for Reynolds will cost us two of our top five and two more of our top ten.

Something like Espino, Jones/Arias, Martinez, and Naylor.

Pittsburgh lists ten and takes one. We pull back three. They pick another, we pull back three. The get the last two. We may throw in a MLB OF that can play this year, like Zimmer.

So, they list...

Espino, Valera, Rocchio, Freeman, Jones, Arias, Naylor, Williams, Martinez, Hankins.

They pick Espino.

We pull back Valera, Rocchio, and Freeman.

They pick Jones.

We pull back Arias, Williams, and Hankins.

They get Naylor and Martinez.

Thats a trade I would make today, tomorrow, and next week.

Naylor isn't going anywhere....

 

[CDAV45]

I was talking about proven MLB WAR, aka proven MLB hitters/players...

My main point is if we trade JRam we put this team backwards not forward in 22...

If we trade JRam, it won't be to a rebuilding team, it will be a playoff contender. Which playoff contender can give up a 2+ proven WAR MLB player and still be fine... Almost none will offer that since they want to add to the lineup.

Then the next question I posted, what's the point of adding a Happ or someone with less than three years of control if we trade JRam... there isn't any to be honest. We will have so much unproven MLB talent. Yes we will get a ton of talent, but most of it will be MLB unproven talent... building around JRam's is this teams best ticket into the playoffs and more right now....

And my main point is that you don't know that it would "put this team backwards not forward in 22". You just don't know.

The point of adding Happ is to improve one of the corner OF spots. You don't think trading JRam will improve any positions?

Look, I'm not advocating trading JRam at all, but stating any results of doing so as fact is fallacy. This isn't targeting you Coach. None of us know, and there's nothing wrong with saying you don't know. Now, if this is what you believe or prefer then your reasoning is understandable, but it's based off of a hypothetical synopsis.

For me, it isn't if I believe trading JRam is or isn't a good idea. It's about me putting my faith in this organizations ability to make good decisions. If they decide to trade JRam then they must have a good reason(s). If they don't trade JRam then the same applies. I don't believe they will trade him before next offseason and that's only if they can't extend him. I also believe that if trading him next offseason should come to pass then they will receive significantly less for him then they would have this offseason, but that's all hypothetical on my part.

 

[CDAV45]

Naylor isn't going anywhere....

Why? Lavastida looks to have jumped him in the organization and they are very pleased with his progress. I don't know this(see what I did), but I speculate that if an OF or C upgrade could be had and Bo Naylor was part of the package then he'd be dealt.

Edited to give an example. Let's say a deal with Arizona for Marte and Kelly was in the works and they wanted Naylor as part of it. Would you nix it because they wanted Bo Naylor? I sure as hell wouldn't.

 

[CDAV45]

We are now into our second year of JRam trade speculation.

We are into our second year of insisting that this team cannot compete without multiple position super stars to go with JRam.

As long as we have a healthy, elite rotation and an elite closer to go with JRam, we will compete.

Neither Coach or me are speculating a JRam trade. In fact, we probably agree that he is very unlikely to be traded.

If you don't like the speculation of a trade about a guy who is due to be a FA in 2 yrs then call Antonetti and complain. It's nobody's fault around here bud.

 

[sportscoach]

Why? Lavastida looks to have jumped him in the organization and they are very pleased with his progress. I don't know this(see what I did), but I speculate that if an OF or C upgrade could be had and Bo Naylor was part of the package then he'd be dealt.

Edited to give an example. Let's say a deal with Arizona for Marte and Kelly was in the works and they wanted Naylor as part of it. Would you nix it because they wanted Bo Naylor? I sure as hell wouldn't.

It's because of the fact they want to keep the brothers on the same team plus we don't have another C in the organization outside of Lavastida.. if we are keeping JRam and Plesac how are we getting another catching prospect? Gomes is a short term player and Hedges is under team control for one season, who is our third ranked C prospect?

 

[CDAV45]

It's because of the fact they want to keep the brothers on the same team plus we don't have another C in the organization outside of Lavastida.. if we are keeping JRam and Plesac how are we getting another catching prospect? Gomes is a short term player and Hedges is under team control for one season, who is our third ranked C prospect?

I'm not opposed to trading both Naylors. The fact that we only have 1 C on the roster suggests that another one will be a requirement.

I don't understand your question. What does keeping JRam and Plesac have to do with getting another C? I didn't say C prospect. I specifically used Carson Kelly as an example.

I don't know that Gomes is a "short term player". I don't even know if he'll be a Guardian. I seriously doubt it because there will probably be several bidders and Cleveland doesn't play that game.

We have Hedges who is relatively inexpensive and shouldn't be a difficult resign if that was desired. Lavastida is in Columbus and a possible call up sometime next season. We've been clamoring about OF help, but a C will be added to the roster. There is no "maybe" or "possibly". It has to happen.

 

[sportscoach]

And my main point is that you don't know that it would "put this team backwards not forward in 22". You just don't know.

The point of adding Happ is to improve one of the corner OF spots. You don't think trading JRam will improve any positions?

Look, I'm not advocating trading JRam at all, but stating any results of doing so as fact is fallacy. This isn't targeting you Coach. None of us know, and there's nothing wrong with saying you don't know. Now, if this is what you believe or prefer then your reasoning is understandable, but it's based off of a hypothetical synopsis.

For me, it isn't if I believe trading JRam is or isn't a good idea. It's about me putting my faith in this organizations ability to make good decisions. If they decide to trade JRam then they must have a good reason(s). If they don't trade JRam then the same applies. I don't believe they will trade him before next offseason and that's only if they can't extend him. I also believe that if trading him next offseason should come to pass then they will receive significantly less for him then they would have this offseason, but that's all hypothetical on my part.

I said why, we would lose a 6+ WAR player and majority of the return will not be proven MLB players. We may get one, Guirrel type (2-3) WAR and the rest of the players likely will be unproven in the bigs.

Now I could be dead wrong on how the guys do in the bigs but I cannot say on paper we will have a better team in 22 since we will have less proven MLB talent. You almost always go backwards trading an All-Star...

About C, can you name another C in our minors?

 

[CATS44]

I dont think Pittsburgh would hang up on an offer that began with Espino and Jones/Arias as a starting point.

It depends on how they rate our prospects....but if they get the number one and number five plus two more in their list of our top ten, they will listen.

Reynolds will cost a ton, but even Pittsburgh can't add a half dozen additional players/prospects to their 40 man.