East is getting tough!

[PIP]

Michael Redd is no Reggie Miller. The arguement is irrelevant.

I'd rather have scottie pippen than reggie miller.

that was a damn good post there e-light..

pippen > miller ----- all day, everyday

 

[TJ_4_CV31]

Check your reading for accuracy. I believe the question was do you think Hughes is a better all around player than Miller.

 

[E-Light]

Check your reading for accuracy. I believe the question was do you think Hughes is a better all around player than Miller.

There of completely different skill sets. Miller was a shooter, who was probably the best ever at moving with out the ball. His strengths were great strengths, his weaknesses weren't really weaknesses, they were just average skills. Hughes is a slasher who does his best work in the open court, and is a great off the ball defender, and is still a good on the ball defender, but not as good as off. He has good ball handling skills, and can ever run point. i think hughes has more versatility than miller. It's a difficult comparison, As of right now you have to give the edge to reggie in all around ability, because his strengths were so great. he did it on the big stage as well, he showed his skills wouldn't fold under pressure, we haven't seen hughes yet in those situations.

Reggie is legendary, you have to give it to him. Hughes is just 26, we still have to see what he becomes.

 

[PIP]

tj -

i believe he was saying he would take pippen's skill set over reggie's

in the same case i would take hughes's skills set over mike's..

i would take reggie over mike (i would take glen rice in his day over mike)

and of course i would take pip over hughes.

but the bottom line is, i would take the all around player over the shooter anyday.

mike can shoot, but he is limited in all other aspects of the game.

hughes can't shoot as well as mike, but at the end of the night he gets about the same amount of points.. doesn't matter how your team scores that 100 a night as long as it totals 100

 

[TJ_4_CV31]

For the record, I'd take Miller over Pippen if both were in their prime. Pip was a great defender and all around player, but not even he could shut down Miller Time. Reggie's gamebreaking ability gives him the nod imo. Pip just wasn't that explosive. Pip was the sidekick to the G.O.A.T.. Reggie was THE show in Indiana.

By asking this question, I was simply establishing the premise that an alleged "shooter" can be better/more effective than a similar "all around" player. Much like Miller, Redd (who is a better rebounder than given credit for) is not asked to make plays for others. The Bucks need Redd to primarily score the ball...not pass to the likes of Strickland, Fizer, Gadz, Zaza, ect.

The most honest among you will admit that the league generally regards Redd as a hotter commodity than Hughes. Without a doubt, Hughes had a better year last year than Redd. He was an integral part of a winning team. However when you look at their stats over the last 3-4 years, you'll see that Redd (an all-star, and all league performer) has been the more consistant player with the more efficeint progression. Also, Hughes has always had all-stars to draw attention away from him (AI, Arenas, Jamison, ect). Redd consistantly has to shoot over double and oftimes triple teams. But he still manages to get it done. Redd will never be an assists guy....shouldn't be.

When Larry and Michael get to the playoffs, you'll begin to see the difference of caliber between the two. When defenses begin to pack the paint, slashing is kept to a minimum (see Lebron v Pistons). Now that the Bucks have more offensive options and a superior penetrator (Bogut, Simmons, Ford), Redd will see many open shots on the perimeter. He can also slash and drive if he needs to. Hughes will have a tougher go against these pack it in teams for obvious reasons. He'll do well, but he doesn't have all of Redd's offensive tools while at the same time there's nothing Hughes can do on O that Redd can't do as well. Neither player is a great on ball defender but Hughes is obviously a better ball hawk.

Redd's 3pt% has dipped from mid 40's to mid 30's due to lack of support. Expect his percentage to reach the 40's again as Bogut is great at passing out of the post. Just look at what Shaq's passing did for DJ. Simmons' shooting will also play a factor here. Simmons and Redd will both shoot around 40% from deep next year due to the dishing of TJ and the post passing of Bogut and Kukoc.

But again, I, as well as most GM's , will take Redd over Hughes due to his superior gamebreaking ability. Haven't you watched Redd at the Gund??

 

[Mac]

You are stretching....very much so..

Redd has never accomplished anything by himself, so to say any GM would take Redd over Hughes is pre-mature. Im not saying they would take Hughes over Redd, but you have to accomplish something before the league is going to make a player better than the other by all GMs...and an All-Star appearance does not do it.

Redd is a complimentary player...he will never be able to carry a team, he doesnt have the game breaking talent to do it. He cant take over games, he cant put a team on his back and carry them anywhere....last time I checked the Bucks havent been the most successfull team out there..

Redd is a nice player, I would have loved him next to Lebron....but the keyword there is NEXT TO. Hughes is proven to be able to play with other players, and perform well, so that is to our advantage and since Hughes is lightyears ahead of Redd as far defense, I beleive it makes him the better fit.

Three point scoring isnt neccessary, the threat to score from deep is what is. Hughes has a threat there, and maybe if we Jones, that's another. So the lanes wont be packed for Lebron, especially since Z is down there..

And the supporting cast for Lebron is much better than that for Redd..

Redd has Simmons, who honestly isnt that much better than Mason and is now a second option and not the first, Bogut who is a rookie center and the only benifit he has is being in the East..even then he will STRUGGLE to get 12 PPG. And TJ Ford who isnt much to talk about...no J, no D, and off a broken neck or whatever it was you expect him to come in and be a factor? No..

The Bucks have a nice young core, but are a far ways away from being a title contender. Your defense is going to be terrible, close to 100 PPG if not more. You have a young team, but you are missing "it".

That IT being a player like Kobe, Lebron, Dirk, Duncan, etc..etc.. Redd is not that. And as long as you stand pat with him as the main player, they will never compete for a championship.

I see this team somewhat to what we had last year...will compete, show some signs, but will fall short of the playoffs due to youth and horrible defense.

The only tradable player you guys really have is Mason and you arent going to get much for him, but you guys need a four that will be a difference. Because if you think Bogot is going to come in and do what Okafor did, you are dreaming. He isnt aggressive enough.

 

[TJ_4_CV31]

I respect your opinion AMac but I'm not stretching anything. The fact that most league sources and GM's ranked Redd and Allen as the top free agents available this offseason is not even debatable imo. Unless of course all media outlets were wrong and this Cav forum is correct.

And please don't try and sell me the notion that Ferry and the Cavs would have taken Hughes over Redd if they had their choice. That just undermines your credibility. The Allen and Redd contracts are proof positive that they were indeed the hottest commodities on the market. Cleveland would have jumped for joy if Redd told them that he'd accept a 5 year 72mil deal to play with Lebron. And we all know who Lebron prefered.

By the way, TJ's injury was a result of a pre-existing condition caused by the narrowing of a spinal vertebre. It's all cleared up and he's better than ever. TJ is a great on the ball defender for his position. It's one of the things that we miss from him. He doesn't have the best jumper but he's the fastest guy in the league with the ball (at least no one is faster) so he can get to the paint whenever he wants.

Redd still has upside and he definitely has won a ton of games for the Bucks already. In fact, he was the Nestle Crunch "crunch time" champ a season or two ago. TJ is the leader of this team and he'll feed Redd to the tune of 24ppg. Bogut is pretty much a gauranteed double double. I'll take 12pts and 10rpg no problem. It's more likely that he'll score around 14 in year 1. Gadz will also start and grab 10 boards. Kukoc and Smith give us solid veteran leadership so we can't be categorized as a "young" team in the same breath as the Bulls. Redd and Mason have been around long enough and this team is definitely ready to compete now.

While we're at least equal to Cleveland, Chicago, and Philly, we don't fear the Indiana Pacers. We're also comfortable playing the Heat. If someone could just get rid of the Pistons for us, you may see the Bucks in the second round "this" year.

 

[KI4MVP]

dream on - you'll be lucky to see the bucks in the first round. No how, no way they are in the 2nd round,

 

[cdt]

YOU ARE NOT ON OUR LEVEL! We were better then you LAST year and had a better offseason via free agency and dumped Jiri Welsch on you as well. I don't see how if you aren't as good as we were last year and we are regarded as the MIT most improved team in the league how can you be on our level? TJ for is not nor will he ever be Isiah Thomas. He can't shoot he can't defend he is undersized and just came off a broken neck with no competive basketball being played in over a year. And to say we wouldn't have taken Hughes over Redd? We never thought we had a snowballs chance in hell at landing him. Everyone and their mother thought he would be a Wizard long term. We never thought we could land him if you go back to the 1st page of Cavs Talk you would see we liked him a lot but no one realistically thought we'd get him.

You act like Redd is on the echelon with KG Tmac LeBron Duncan Iverson and Kobe. He isnt, he is a 2nd or even Marc Stein said 3rd option on a good team. He is a complimentary player at best and the reason you can't beleive that is because he is the best you have. Sure he would have been good next to LeBron but Hughes can cut down ppg on the other SG with his defense and score on you on the other end as well. You say Redd is a better rebound then given credit for? He gets like 3 per game! Larry is pushing 7. And Redd's shooting is slipping so I don't see how you can say we'd prefer Redd. He is 1 dimensional and that 1 dimension is slipping..

 

[TJ_4_CV31]

dream on - you'll be lucky to see the bucks in the first round. No how, no way they are in the 2nd round,

The same statement could be made about the Cavaliers.

 

[Chris_Farley]

yeah, imo the bucks will be lucky to even MAKE the playoffs. I see no depth, a rookie center who i think could fall flat on his face, but i think he'll be ok. Kukoc is a year older, bobby simmons has to prove hes not a 1 year wonder, and TJ has to show he can be a player. A lot of question marks there.

 

[Pioneer10]

Redd would have been a good fit for the Cavs but once Donyell Marshall signed as well as Z the situation changed. With Marshall as a deep threat and even Z's good midrange shooting in the fold, I think Hughes clear advantage at the other points in the game make a huge difference. Our perimeter D was terrible and clearly this PG class weak so getting Hughes helps our next biggest weakness which Redd couldn't do.

That being said if you're generous and say Hughes = Redd, the Bucks have an advantage maybe at PG till the Cavs finish their offseason. After that the Cavs have clear advantages at each position and it is pretty significant specifically at the SF with Lebron and C with Z. The Bucks have obviously improved but the problem was the Cavs have improved just as much particulary where we were weak last year and were better last year.

With regards to the Pacers, until Lebron can take it to Steven Jackson instead Jax eating up Lebron the Pacers will beat the Cavs. The one player in the league who has Lebron's number is Jackson and until that changes the Pacers will also have our number as well

 

[TJ_4_CV31]

Not on your level CDT? Let's look at what happened in 04-05:

Sat. Nov 6, 2004....Bradley Center

Milwaukee 102
Cleveland 88

Michael Redd.....28pts 8reb 3asst


Sun. Jan 30, 2005......Gund Arena

Cleveland 104
Milwaukee 87

Gooden.....33pts 11reb


Wed. Mar 16, 2005....Bradley Center

Milwaukee 96
Cleveland 88

Redd.......32pts 9reb


Fri. Apr 9, 2005.....Gund Arena

Cleveland 98
Milwaukee 81

James......40pts 10reb 10asst

Former Bucks receiving minutes in this game:

Fizer.....16min
Strickland....24min
Booth....18min
Goldwire....14min
Gaines.....2min

Now that's 2-2 by my estimation CDT. Keep in mind, the Bucks essentially tanked the last half of the season as the GM traded away contributors and replaced them with street free agents like Anthony Goldwire and Kendall Gill. They even gave Reece Gaines Ray Allen's old number (34).....the equipment manager was fired at the end of the season (true story). The GM's moves netted us Andrew Bogut and the ability to sign Redd and Simmons. Now TJ returns and it's on again.

To say that the Bucks are "not on your level" is homerism at its ugly best.

 

[PIP]

i'm pretty sure we hammered you guys without LeBRON in one of those games(rougly by 20 points) drew gooden owns joe smith :chuckles:

and if your're gonna talk about a tanking excuse-- the cavs can use the excuse that the first meeting "WAS EARLY"..

look for more of the 40-10-10 from LeBRON this season... but with hughes on board, look for redd's numbers to " drop...

 

[d3]

ur silly ... ur silly....

anyway

u make redd seem like hes a superstar... hes the only good player on his team.. tahst why hes ur 1st option.