JR Smith

[Snarly]

We're not in disagreement on any of these points.

My problem is that we traded away a player at the point of lowest possible value. Even if we improved, the point is that we sold low and we could likely have netted a greater return if we had either traded him earlier or later than in the midst of a poor run with two injured star players.

Look at it this way. We got that first round pick in that adds trade value for a solid big. Basically Dion could have gotten us, Smith, Shumpert, and the likes of Mozgov of Kufos. To me that is pretty darn impressive.

 

[Futuredome]

Look at it this way. We got that first round pick in that adds trade value for a solid big. Basically Dion could have gotten us, Smith, Shumpert, and the likes of Mozgov of Kufos. To me that is pretty darn impressive.

Smith and Shump may be out right lost value. Shump has been physically a mess and Smith is a bad player. This is what he means by "you guys". The 1st needed to be thrown in because the Cavs were not going to trade Dion damned his "chemistry problem" just for Shump/Smith alone. We need a center and got a asset for a move.

 

[gourimoko]

I'm not sure if you're inferring in your first paragraph that at some point Minnesota would have ever taken a Dion and Bennet package for Love but if you are, I just don't agree. If you're not, I apologize for the assumption.

I wasn't making that assumption, but I'm going off of every media report that was out there that suggested Dion was the biggest piece of that potential trade.

We don't know one way or the other if Gilbert had called Minnesota's bluff where we'd be right now. And I'm not really trying to rehash that either.

As far as Dion's trade value, considering how long its been known we would move him, I just don't think his trade value was much higher over the summer than it was right now.

Then we are in two separate universes. I can quote insiders on this board going into the preseason about Dion's trade value to the front office. Remember all the Hibbert talk?

We've been told for over a year that teams were blowing up the Cavaliers inquiring about Waiters and being told to fuck off.

Now we moved him for JR Smith and Iman Shumpert....

...k...

And I also don't think we can be sure that his trade value would have ever increased much from this point forward.

He was playing the worst basketball of his career.. Are you serious? Unless he had a terminal illness that I don't know about, he would've likely started to eventually play better.

And this is coming from someone(me) who likes Dion Waiters. I like him as a person and as a player. I think the combo of Shumpert and Smith are better fits for us, give us a deeper roster, and that the total package we got for essentially Dion straight up was actually pretty good value.

...my point isn't whether or not we get marginally better in the immediate sense.

Lastly, I'm not sure about rain and parade, but I evaluate each move on its own merit and within a larger context of the present and future and I happen to like this trade and I feel I have stated a fairly good case for as why in multiple posts so it doesn't matter to me whether or not you think I'm just hopping on the koolaid express. Nor do I expect you to care whether I agree with your opinion on it. But I respect and acknowledge that its YOUR opinion without trying to reducing it down to Contrarianism the way you're reducing my opinion down to Bandwagonism.

I'm not referring to you as a bandwagon fan, just as my original post isn't addressed to you as an individual. I'm speaking about the board in general using generalities to talk about an apparent behavior of a large group.

I respect you opinion and don't disagree with most of what you've said.

However, to say that we got fair value for Waiters; considering what his apparent worth was this summer, I think, is a stretch.

 

[Snarly]

Smith and Shump may be out right lost value. Shump has been physically a mess and Smith is a bad player. This is what he means by "you guys". The 1st needed to be thrown in because the Cavs were not going to trade Dion damned his "chemistry problem" just for Shump/Smith alone. We need a center and got a asset for a move.

Players can always be different players on different teams we see it all the time. Dion could explode in OKC as well as Shump could revive his value here. That is not the issue and the fact is we are better after this trade already with the pick is a bonus. We won't know till we see results yes. However the DIon result we seen more than our share. Adding to players to his one is an upgrade on its own.

The pick and the rest of our exceptions are needed so yeah it is not all Dion who would get us all these players. You have to look at it as if you were losing Dion anyways. He was not in tune and was hurting the team. Nothing against him or his play but he never was a fit here. We got as good of value as we could. I am not sure why people thought Dion could get us a star or close to type player. Dion is a huge question mark that we could not gamble on any longer.

 

[MirORich]

Then we are in two separate universes. I can quote insiders on this board going into the preseason about Dion's trade value to the front office. Remember all the Hibbert talk?

We've been told for over a year that teams were blowing up the Cavaliers inquiring about Waiters and being told to fuck off.

I never took the Hibbert rumor as serious nor did I get the impression that any credible national writer or any connected person on this site did either. Beyond that, of course over the years the Cavs maintained that Dion and Tristan were receiving great interest from other teams. That's their job to say that. What deals that were ever even close to advanced stages were Dion ever linked to? Not ones we wished could happen, but actually had legit smoke behind them.

He was playing the worst basketball of his career.. Are you serious? Unless he had a terminal illness that I don't know about, he would've likely started to eventually play better.

Based on how he was playing next to Kyrie, Love, and LeBron so far, it is a reasonable thing to acknowledge that its not a certainty he would ever raise his trade value significantly from where it was today. Not saying thats an absolute but I also don't think what I'm saying is farfetched.

...my point isn't whether or not we get marginally better in the immediate sense.

I don't think its a stretch to say that we got better in the short term/immediate sense and in the long term.

Short term: 2 way player starting at SG. Gives better and more consistent defense on the wing than Dion. Is used to playing without the ball in his hands. Allows Marion, Miller, and Delly all to never sniff the starting lineup again. JR provides the scoring and better 3P shooting than Dion in the six man role. So short term we have two roles now being filled with better fits and other pieces(Miller, Marion, Delly) are now not being asked to start at SG.

Long term: Shumpert is only 1 year older than Dion and will likely be an easier sign in FA than Dion. Long term all the pluses I see in him at SG remain. 1st round OKC pick. That can not be anything but a plus in the longterm, whether we trade it now for C help, in the offseason, or it becomes a pick we actually use. Smith next season if he's not needed or hasn't worked out becomes a piece that can be added to a deal as a 2015 expiring.

 

[gratefuldead]

since dion lovers always wanted to talk about his catch and shoot %

check what jr did last year

• Last season, top 5 in catch and shoot 3FG makes.
• Last season, top 5 in catch and shoot 3FG%, 46.2% (only Korver, Curry, Belinelli better)
• Last season, top 5 in catch and shoot eFG%, 66.9% (only Korver and Curry better)

 

[CavsFan005]

MirORich, I gotta say... I don't think anyone would've said yesterday that JR Smith would be a positive influence on a playoff team.

I just.. don't know how you'd have come to that conclusion?

And again, I'm not evaluating the trade in it's totality here, nor am I being critical of you.

Rather, I'm being critical of JR Smith -- who deserves tremendous criticism -- he is not an unknown as you yourself have said.

I'm also being critical of David Griffin who is really demonstrating that he has little to no patience to develop a winner the right way.

We keep blowing our wad on these short-term trades; all of which are pretty big gambles.

And when they don't pan out, then we say "don't bitch about it, it's over and done with." Look at how much shit folks get for bringing up Wiggins or Drummond or JV...

Cavs front office is not inspiring me with confidence.

I agree with pretty much everything you said here especially the bolded part. I can't for the life of me defend this trade quite yet. Its another one of those quick panic moves made by griffin that looks good on paper, but may not necessarily pan out. Nobody and I mean absolutely Nobody wanted JR Smith or Shumpert on this board before today its kind of strange.

Regardless of what Waiters value around the league is he was still our #1 trading asset and I would explore all other opportunities first before trading it for a couple of mediocre shooting guards on a cesspool Knicks team and a late first rounder.

The Knicks have been trying to get rid of them for over a year now and I'm sure there are more reasons for this then the average cavs fan can understand. I really would have like to see what we could of gotten at the deadline for a package of Waiters and Thompson together. Worst case we do this deal at the deadline when time expires. I think Griffin might have blew his wad too quickly again

 

[6kiss]

Finally we have a player on the team that isnt soft as shit and is willing to beat someones ass on the court.

 

[Snarly]

since dion lovers always wanted to talk about his catch and shoot %

check what jr did last year

• Last season, top 5 in catch and shoot 3FG makes.
• Last season, top 5 in catch and shoot 3FG%, 46.2% (only Korver, Curry, Belinelli better)
• Last season, top 5 in catch and shoot eFG%, 66.9% (only Korver and Curry better)

So we got what we want and people worry about attitude. So Waiters was worse with a alpha dog attitude that in turn sowered Kyrie and seem LeBron now as well. We add a vet with a much better catch and shoot who is a more out of the locker room issue than Waiters but less In locker room issue with this team assuming LeBron rumors knowing Smith is true. So we lose out how? we are getting what we need with the same amount of B.S so it is an upgrade for this teams style. This is all so confusing, great post BTW.

 

[Futuredome]

I agree with pretty much everything you said here especially the bolded part. I can't for the life of me defend this trade quite yet. Its another one of those quick panic moves made by griffin that looks good on paper, but may not necessarily pan out. Nobody and I mean absolutely Nobody wanted JR Smith or Shumpert on this board before today its kind of strange.

Regardless of what Waiters value around the league is he was still our #1 trading asset and I would explore all other opportunities first before trading it for a couple of mediocre shooting guards on a cesspool Knicks team and a late first rounder.

The Knicks have been trying to get rid of them for over a year now and I'm sure there are more reasons for this then the average cavs fan can understand. I really would have like to see what we could of gotten at the deadline for a package of Waiters and Thompson together. Worst case we do this deal at the deadline when time expires. I think Griffin might have blew his wad too quickly again

Alot of it is being a fan. We want the best for everybody. Shump can refind his early career form. Smith ain't a spaz. We almost did a Smith/Waiters deal last year, which shows how out of the loop Waiters became in 2013-14 season after Bryon's firing.

 

[gourimoko]

Mir, couple of points..

First, regarding Dion's trade value. Had you made this argument during the Love trade talks that lasted months - it would have made no sense. Waiters was the centerpiece of the trade that was being negotiated for a superstar. Yes, we traded Wiggins, but to my original point; only 5% of the posters who voted in the Wiggins poll say they would have given up that much in the trade.

As a poster above said, he was our absolute best trade asset.

Now, today, he's barely (dpe) even worth Iman Shumpert and JR Smith....

It takes anyone here about 5 seconds to find out what posters have said in the past... People here, in the know, have stated the Cavaliers wouldn't trade Dion unless we got back a haul.

Windhorst, just last month said Dion was to be moved as the primary piece in deal for a major player naming off Deandre Jordan, Roy Hibbert (who is available), Tyson Chandler or Marc Gasol.

It's late bro... wtf....

 

[bobcat22]

I get everybody who has reservations about JR. I really do. Had it been Waiters for JR, I'd have been pissed too because it wouldn't have made sense or helped the team at all. But the Cavs gave up Waiters for Smith, Shumpert, AND a 1st round pick guaranteed to come over in one of the next 2 years.

Shumpert is only 24, which is 1 year older than Dion. Smith is 29 and has played one less season than LeBron. All Smith will be asked to do is come off the bench and provide consistent scoring, which he has done his entire career. A motivated J.R. can be a difference-maker. Look at Jamal Crawford on the Clippers. Shumpert has always been a player I hoped the Cavs could get at the 2. He's young, can defend and shoot the 3. He's also very athletic and gives the Cavs much more versatility on the wing so LeBron doesn't have to consistently guard a 1 or 2. Same for Marion.

The 1st round pick will help us in trying to trade for a rim protector and we may even get to keep the Memphis pick for ourselves or use it for something else down the road. That pick being thrown in is HUGE for this team. The Nuggets for example wouldn't give two shits about Waiters in a trade for Mozgov because they are so deep at the 2 guard. But that 1st rounder may be much more juicy for a rebuilding team.

Also, just think about production. Smith is having his worst year since 2005-06 and that is about the exact same as Waiters production this year. A motivated Smith on a playoff contender will play much better than he did on the Knicks. Hopefully Shumpert's shoulder is good to go here soon.

Finally, if you are worried about Smith's attitude, him and LeBron are buddies surprisingly enough. They worked out in Akron earlier in their careers almost every summer and the team asked LeBron if he'd be cool with playing with him prior to the trade. If he's cool with LeBron, he's not gonna be a complete knucklehead here.

We replaced one knucklehead with another knucklehead(that is friends with LeBron) with the exact same role, plus a very young wing 3 and D guy and a 1st round pick. What's not to like?

 

[MirORich]

Mir, couple of points..

First, regarding Dion's trade value. Had you made this argument during the Love trade talks that lasted months - it would have made no sense. Waiters was the centerpiece of the trade that was being negotiated for a superstar.

As a poster above said, he was our absolute best trade asset.

Now, today, he's worth Iman Shumpert and JR Smith....

It takes anyone here about 5 seconds to find out what posters have said in the past... People here, in the know, have stated the Cavaliers wouldn't trade Dion unless we got back a haul.

Windhorst, just last month said Dion was to be moved for a major piece. Here's Stereo's post about it:



Hibbert has been available since forever. If Windhorst isn't in the know, then who is? (lol)...

Windhorst has stated that Dion would be used to get a major piece, not Mozgov and Shumpert. In fact, Windy said the Cavaliers were cool on Mozgov and Kufos, that those names were not who we were targeting as they didn't impress the front office.

It's late bro... wtf....

Dion was only a centerpiece to a possible Love deal by CAVS fans who hoped/dreamed to be able to get Love without giving up Wiggins. The Wolves never entertained and never wanted Dion Waiters.

A major piece on a team already featuring LeBron, Kyrie, and Love is not the same as "a major piece" when you're starting a team from scratch.

Beyond that given Dions salary, what major piece suggest we could ever get for Dion in midseason.

 

[MirORich]

Alot of it is being a fan. We want the best for everybody. Shump can refind his early career form. Smith ain't a spaz. We almost did a Smith/Waiters deal last year, which shows how out of the loop Waiters became in 2013-14 season after Bryon's firing.

Future, even if Shump never refinds his early career form(the guy came into the league only one year before Dion btw), he still THIS year has a higher/almost equal FG% and a much higher 3P FG%. All the while being a better defender than Dion who is used to moving without the ball to get his points.

On top of that, we add Smith. For weeks we've been hearing that LeBron and Loves minutes need to come down. So we just added two guys and traded out one. Making it easier for LeBron and Lovce's minutes to come down.

And on top of that the pick.

 

[DatDudeZ3]

I feel JR will be nice for this team, not a game-changer or anything crazy like that though obviously. I think he will focus more and try to play a more team-oriented game here on a contender w/ LeBron and Kyrie. His role will be simple, catch and shoot, come off screens and shoot or create, doesn't need to pound the ball ala D Waiters. He's a better shooter than Dion and will make teams pay if they leave him open which Dion didn't do very often. He will be a nice scoring punch off the bench, I've always thought JR was a good scorer and very talented and if he has his head on straight here w/ a fresh start, he can be very valuable to us.