Let it all out. The Cavaliers Rant Thread

[ryanf]

Spoken like a true Cavs homer, because there's no way anyone without bias could say that. Any impartial person would admit that Okoro's season to date has been a disaster. When he was drafted he was projected as an athletic wing. Instead we have ourselves an undersized player who is too small to guard a wing and has shown absolutely nothing besides being a capable 1 on 1 defender of smaller players.
I wanted and expected to draft Avdija and he would have been a much better fit. As a point forward he could help offset Sexton's inability to play the point and at 6'9" he provides the length and rebounding this squad lacks. He'd also have helped with the spacing since he's at least a reasonable threat with a 3. Okoro isn't as bad as he's looked, but he's a horrible fit here. You can't play him with 2 small guards or with a team that is already offensively challenged. Plus while there's nothing wrong with learning on the job, having Okoro sit out at the 3 point line is beyond ridiculous. We saw him miss the rim on one where he was 8' from any defender. While he may improve his shot, having him even attempt threes right now plays into the opponents wish list.

yep, you said the circumstances why okoro is failing, rchfld just said the circumstances why haliburton is succeeding. hence, it's too early to tell who is really going to be better between them. remember, sacramento had tyreke evans balling... but then it was just a product of circumstance.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

Spoken like a true Cavs homer, because there's no way anyone without bias could say that. Any impartial person would admit that Okoro's season to date has been a disaster. When he was drafted he was projected as an athletic wing. Instead we have ourselves an undersized player who is too small to guard a wing and has shown absolutely nothing besides being a capable 1 on 1 defender of smaller players.
I wanted and expected to draft Avdija and he would have been a much better fit. As a point forward he could help offset Sexton's inability to play the point and at 6'9" he provides the length and rebounding this squad lacks. He'd also have helped with the spacing since he's at least a reasonable threat with a 3. Okoro isn't as bad as he's looked, but he's a horrible fit here. You can't play him with 2 small guards or with a team that is already offensively challenged. Plus while there's nothing wrong with learning on the job, having Okoro sit out at the 3 point line is beyond ridiculous. We saw him miss the rim on one where he was 8' from any defender. While he may improve his shot, having him even attempt threes right now plays into the opponents wish list.

A think a couple of things were in play with the Okoro pick. One, the Cavs weren't just bad last year, they were historically bad. Job One was to improve the defense on the perimeter. Okoro is a kid they think can do that.

Two, they're very big on culture. They talk about wanting players who have a huge work ethic and are unselfishly focused on winning. Okoro's coaches raved about his work ethic, unselfishness, and commitment to winning. Plus, he killed the interview.

Three, the Cavs felt they had enough scorers between Garland, Sexton, Love, Drummond, and Porter. They also feel Windler can become a decent scorer. They didn't need another guy who wants to take a lot of shots.

So I can understand the decision but in retrospect they may have put too much weight on character, work ethic, and intangibles. It's hard to justify taking Okoro at #5 given his shocking lack of offensive skills both as a small forward and a 2-guard. At this point he looks more like a mid-round pick in a normal draft. But he has a very strong work ethic and I'm confident he'll be like Sexton and Nance, adding things to his game each year. I think we just have to accept that this was a weak year for the draft and the ping pong balls were not kind. Maybe the best we can do is a tough, hard-working kid who in time becomes a defensive stopper and a finisher in transition.

 

[fncavsfan]

I didn't read through all the complaining in here. So I will give a small opinion on things.

Trying to grade our young players this year is not fair to them. They have played with so many different lineups to this point in the season. There is zero consistency. Most of this is due to injuries. Look at the Heat-in the final last year, struggling badly this year. Mostly due to injuries and having a consistent lineup.

The killer has been not having Nance-he was the key to our defense is what these last 10 games or so is showing.

Having one of Love or Nance will help a lot (even though I am not big on Love anymore, he brings something we need at this point-floor spacing).

Everyone is trying to kill Altman-but the team he put together has not been on the floor for any length of time. Let's have a healthy group play 20 games and see where we are.

I do think Okoro needs to go to the bench (and I do think this was the wrong pick-I wanted Haliburton-but we still need to give him more than 25 games to judge him)-we just can't start someone who has zero gravity on offense with the rest of the group we play. His D is not good enough yet for that tradeoff.

Garland
Sexton
Cedi
Nance or Love
Allen

Dotson
Okoru
Prince/Windler
Nance or Love
Mcgee

If we had Love and Cedi starting it would open the court up a ton for Garland and Sexton.

Watching Golden States offense vs our offense-was like night and day. So much movement, back screens, back cuts, etc etc Our offense was stagnant-no movement-simple one pick and roll and with no off ball movement. Having a center be able to be a playmaker is a very nice tool--Draymond, Jokic, etc. What is sad is I think Drummond "could have" been a decent playmaker-if he only could understand his strengths and do just that.

 

[Ohioplayer00]

I didn't read through all the complaining in here. So I will give a small opinion on things.

Trying to grade our young players this year is not fair to them. They have played with so many different lineups to this point in the season. There is zero consistency. Most of this is due to injuries. Look at the Heat-in the final last year, struggling badly this year. Mostly due to injuries and having a consistent lineup.

The killer has been not having Nance-he was the key to our defense is what these last 10 games or so is showing.

Having one of Love or Nance will help a lot (even though I am not big on Love anymore, he brings something we need at this point-floor spacing).

Everyone is trying to kill Altman-but the team he put together has not been on the floor for any length of time. Let's have a healthy group play 20 games and see where we are.

I do think Okoro needs to go to the bench (and I do think this was the wrong pick-I wanted Haliburton-but we still need to give him more than 25 games to judge him)-we just can't start someone who has zero gravity on offense with the rest of the group we play. His D is not good enough yet for that tradeoff.

Garland
Sexton
Cedi
Nance or Love
Allen

Dotson
Okoru
Prince/Windler
Nance or Love
Mcgee

If we had Love and Cedi starting it would open the court up a ton for Garland and Sexton.

Watching Golden States offense vs our offense-was like night and day. So much movement, back screens, back cuts, etc etc Our offense was stagnant-no movement-simple one pick and roll and with no off ball movement. Having a center be able to be a playmaker is a very nice tool--Draymond, Jokic, etc. What is sad is I think Drummond "could have" been a decent playmaker-if he only could understand his strengths and do just that.

And the problem is our offense has been stagnant for close to 15 years! Ball and player movement has been an issue with every single coach we have had. Why is it that we find a coach (ie Stevens, Kerr, I’m forgetting the Utah coach’s name) that can preach and implement a ball/player movement offense? We haven’t had a ball and player movement offense since the days of Price and Daugherty!

 

[KevinLoveFan]

And the problem is our offense has been stagnant for close to 15 years! Ball and player movement has been an issue with every single coach we have had. Why is it that we find a coach (ie Stevens, Kerr, I’m forgetting the Utah coach’s name) that can preach and implement a ball/player movement offense? We haven’t had a ball and player movement offense since the days of Price and Daugherty!

Great list, and I'd add Michael Malone of Denver. Also a huge fan of what OKC has done this season under young new coach Mark Daigneault. That team has very little talent outside of SGA, Dort, and Horford (George Hill has been injured much of the season), but they play great team basketball with lots of movement. They're competitive almost every night, and can even beat top teams sometimes.

 

[Dr No]

Great list, and I'd add Michael Malone of Denver. Also a huge fan of what OKC has done this season under young new coach Mark Daigneault. That team has very little talent outside of SGA, Dort, and Horford (George Hill has been injured much of the season), but they play great team basketball with lots of movement. They're competitive almost every night, and can even beat top teams sometimes.

I love what OKC has done. Presti is a trade and draft wizard. They’ve gotten promising players like Bazley late in the first round, Diallo, Roby and Maledon in the 2nd, and Dort as a 2-way. They took a flyer on Pokusevski late in the 1st that may or may not work out. They’ve got an arsenal of draft picks over the next few years to work with and a great young point guard to build around. Plus, the culture seems healthy. They compete hard and weed out those who don’t fit the culture quickly. There can’t be a less ideal location from a players standpoint than OKC, and yet nearly every player who goes to the Thunder speaks well of their time there.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

Spoken like a true Cavs homer, because there's no way anyone without bias could say that. Any impartial person would admit that Okoro's season to date has been a disaster. When he was drafted he was projected as an athletic wing. Instead we have ourselves an undersized player who is too small to guard a wing and has shown absolutely nothing besides being a capable 1 on 1 defender of smaller players.
I wanted and expected to draft Avdija and he would have been a much better fit. As a point forward he could help offset Sexton's inability to play the point and at 6'9" he provides the length and rebounding this squad lacks. He'd also have helped with the spacing since he's at least a reasonable threat with a 3. Okoro isn't as bad as he's looked, but he's a horrible fit here. You can't play him with 2 small guards or with a team that is already offensively challenged. Plus while there's nothing wrong with learning on the job, having Okoro sit out at the 3 point line is beyond ridiculous. We saw him miss the rim on one where he was 8' from any defender. While he may improve his shot, having him even attempt threes right now plays into the opponents wish list.

That's fine, I'll be your true Cavs homer.

Welcome to the board.

I watched Okoro in a few games at Auburn before the draft and I loved his impact on the game. He always made the right play and he didnt just defend, but he shutdown 1-4 on some pretty tough SEC matchups. As a true freshman, he was easily their best player and I saw flashes for offensive skills that I have no doubt will translate over to the pros

On Defense:
I also take into account that he had no summer, no offseason pro-workout to prepare for his rookie year, and that he's the youngest player on the team essentially getting his feet wet while already making sound defensive plays and learning through the gauntlet of guarding the best perimeter player on his first time playing these guys and his first time through the league.

I'd be lying if I didnt say I thought he was longer than he appears/plays. Not taller, but longer.

I expect that as he gets his NBA legs under him and starts building on the floor that he has, he will play as a longer player. As of right now, if I'm projecting what role he would develop best in for the rest of the season, I would make him the starting 2guard and allow him to continue guarding the best opposing perimeter player like he's doing.

On Offense:
I need to see a offensive structure to really know how best to utilize him within that offense. He needs to work on his handle of course, he needs to be put in positions to assert himself within the offense (it's clear he is so wired to make the "right" play that he is always looking to move the ball or create better space for the ball handler/post player). Perhaps to build his confidence, we need him to move to the bench and come in as the 3rd guard so he can start asserting himself on offense against backups like Haliburton is doing. With the flashes I have seen, I like when I've seen he has made up his mind to attack/be aggressive, that he is fearless with taking the ball to the hole (almost got himself killed trying to climb on Draymond last night, but I liked the aggression anyway).

I wanted Wiseman, then Williams, then Okoro and that hasnt changed after 30 games

 

[adam81king]

That's fine, I'll be your true Cavs homer.

Welcome to the board.

I watched Okoro in a few games at Auburn before the draft and I loved his impact on the game. He always made the right play and he didnt just defend, but he shutdown 1-4 on some pretty tough SEC matchups. As a true freshman, he was easily their best player and I saw flashes for offensive skills that I have no doubt will translate over to the pros

On Defense:
I also take into account that he had no summer, no offseason pro-workout to prepare for his rookie year, and that he's the youngest player on the team essentially getting his feet wet while already making sound defensive plays and learning through the gauntlet of guarding the best perimeter player on his first time playing these guys and his first time through the league.

I'd be lying if I didnt say I thought he was longer than he appears/plays. Not taller, but longer.

I expect that as he gets his NBA legs under him and starts building on the floor that he has, he will play as a longer player. As of right now, if I'm projecting what role he would develop best in for the rest of the season, I would make him the starting 2guard and allow him to continue guarding the best opposing perimeter player like he's doing.

On Offense:
I need to see a offensive structure to really know how best to utilize him within that offense. He needs to work on his handle of course, he needs to be put in positions to assert himself within the offense (it's clear he is so wired to make the "right" play that he is always looking to move the ball or create better space for the ball handler/post player). Perhaps to build his confidence, we need him to move to the bench and come in as the 3rd guard so he can start asserting himself on offense against backups like Haliburton is doing. With the flashes I have seen, I like when I've seen he has made up his mind to attack/be aggressive, that he is fearless with taking the ball to the hole (almost got himself killed trying to climb on Draymond last night, but I liked the aggression anyway).

I wanted Wiseman, then Williams, then Okoro and that hasnt changed after 30 games

Same.

 

[Pioneer10]

I remain a bigger fan of Okoro than Haliburton.

Haliburton is made possible by Fox being as dynamic as he is on both ends. Without Fox, Haliburton does not get that funky set shot off cleanly.

The real story in Sacramento (4 or 5 games below .500 btw) is Fox back to looking like the all-star point guard that he was looking like before they fired Dave Joerger and hired Luke Walton. Sacramento is just now getting Bagley healthy and showing flashes of being having potential out there and that helps as well. He has a little young Lamarcus Aldridge with his length and ability to cover on D.

Haliburton has greatly benefitting from their young pair hitting years 3-4 and looking like it with high paid vets (Barnes & Hield) locked in to their contracts and content with playing their roles around them

At the least I'd be shocked if Halliburton barring injury isn't 10 to 15 year solid NBA player. The case for him is pretty easy as he can play either the 1 or 2. Can be on ball or off ball. On the Cavs he would essentially solve SexLand as either Garland or Sexton could play with him

Meanwhile Okoro I don't know man. He's got some athleticism but he doesn't jump out of the gym like a guy like a Morant. He seems like a good kid and certainly Jimmy Butler is the best case scenario for him but to get to that stage is going to take a long long time. His box score +/- numbers are the worse among all rookies seeing PT. The dude right now can't catch and shoot, can't pull up, can't post op:. He doesn't have point forward like passing abilities That's a lot of skills to add: I mean even his FT shooting isn't good either

 

[Pioneer10]

Double post

 

[Futuredome]

Okoro is RCF's sin. We missed badly. I mean with Garland, I see a Rick Nash upside with the guy. Okoro, I see nothing. Just a bench piece. Well that isn't good enough. But the sin will keep on growing the longer it is ignored. We screwed up. We simply did.

 

[2 For The Brew]

I didn't read through all the complaining in here. So I will give a small opinion on things.

Trying to grade our young players this year is not fair to them. They have played with so many different lineups to this point in the season. There is zero consistency. Most of this is due to injuries. Look at the Heat-in the final last year, struggling badly this year. Mostly due to injuries and having a consistent lineup.

The killer has been not having Nance-he was the key to our defense is what these last 10 games or so is showing.

Having one of Love or Nance will help a lot (even though I am not big on Love anymore, he brings something we need at this point-floor spacing).

Everyone is trying to kill Altman-but the team he put together has not been on the floor for any length of time. Let's have a healthy group play 20 games and see where we are.

I do think Okoro needs to go to the bench (and I do think this was the wrong pick-I wanted Haliburton-but we still need to give him more than 25 games to judge him)-we just can't start someone who has zero gravity on offense with the rest of the group we play. His D is not good enough yet for that tradeoff.

Garland
Sexton
Cedi
Nance or Love
Allen

Dotson
Okoru
Prince/Windler
Nance or Love
Mcgee

If we had Love and Cedi starting it would open the court up a ton for Garland and Sexton.

Watching Golden States offense vs our offense-was like night and day. So much movement, back screens, back cuts, etc etc Our offense was stagnant-no movement-simple one pick and roll and with no off ball movement. Having a center be able to be a playmaker is a very nice tool--Draymond, Jokic, etc. What is sad is I think Drummond "could have" been a decent playmaker-if he only could understand his strengths and do just that.

I like a lot of this post but starting Garland, Sexton, Cedi (and maybe Love) - we’d have trouble holding opponents under 35 points a quarter.

 

[Derek]

I feel like a lot of fans feel like they need to take sides between the players (Drummond and KPJ namely) and management/coaches, and I'm here to tell you that it's possible they all suck.

Drummond was drafted nearly a decade ago and still refuses to accept that he should just focus on being a rebounder, rim protector, and lob catcher if he wants to truly be an impactful player. He's pouted ever since the Cavs acquired Allen despite the fact that his minutes have remained relatively untouched.

KPJ was given ample opportunities to be a part of this organization and failed to meet even the bare minimum requirements. Sure, he's tearing up the G League, but so are Jordan Poole and Vernon Carey Jr.

Bickerstaff has been completely exposed on the offensive end, and the defense he was hanging his hat on has fallen apart. Was Nance really THAT good, or did we just have an unsustainable stretch of solid basketball?

Altman has shown time and time again that his understanding of what it takes to compete in today's NBA is limited. It started with the D-Rose and D-Wade acquisitions before LeBron's final season and continued as we draft undersized players with questionable shots. Sexton has worked out as well as one could imagine, but he's still a 90's player struggling to truly excel in the modern NBA. The only draft picks that have made sense were Garland and Windler, and those are more in theory than practice.

End rant.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Here's the thing:
The season was moving along and we were all encouraged by the the play, the coaching, and the player development.
Then we beat the superstar laden Nets in back to back games.
Things were looking great.
Now, a couple of weeks later, and we look as bad as you can get.
I don't understand why.
Is Larry Nance the MVP?

 

[Soar]

Here's the thing:
The season was moving along and we were all encouraged by the the play, the coaching, and the player development.
Then we beat the superstar laden Nets in back to back games.
Things were looking great.
Now, a couple of weeks later, and we look as bad as you can get.
I don't understand why.
Is Larry Nance the MVP?

Anytime you have that large and dramatic of a drop off it is not one thing.

Few things come to mind.

1) Team regressed to the mean. They probably overachieved in the first half of the season.

2) Teams actually took notice of the Cavs and Sexton declaring the team was back on the map made the team a target.

3) The schedule got much harder.

4) Drummond dynamic worsened.

5) Effort and defense stopped.

6) Teams started to realize how limited so many of our guys were. We do not have a starting caliber wing anywhere on the roster.