Let it all out. The Cavaliers Rant Thread

[Rich]

He's listed at 6 foot, but I suspect he's 5'11". The advanced numbers aren't showing a positive contribution. He average 5 ppg on awful shooting percentages and too often he tries to play the hero at exactly the wrong moment. They need a better backup PG.

If you mean LeVert's natural role on a good team is coming off the bench, then yes, I agree.

Clearly from the context of my post I didn't mean that.

So either debate the point or move on. Not interested in discussing this with someone intentionally misunderstanding a sentence.


Goodwin isn't a good shooter. This isn't up for debate.

He is: a pesky defender, a smart player, a guy who gets the ball up the court quickly, and a guy whose vision is improving every time he plays.

If you don't agree then you don't agree. I'm not gonna download replays of his latest games to prove my points with Screencaps.

He'd help LeVert by taking him off the ball and Garland by giving him a breather.

But you think he's trash and really, trying to change someone's mind on the internet is pointless.

 

[cavsfever]

Goodwin isn’t an awful shooter, he’s below average but not terrrible. For example he has better shooting percentages for us than Levert has so far

 

[CavsKermit]

Clearly from the context of my post I didn't mean that.

So either debate the point or move on. Not interested in discussing this with someone intentionally misunderstanding a sentence.


Goodwin isn't a good shooter. This isn't up for debate.

He is: a pesky defender, a smart player, a guy who gets the ball up the court quickly, and a guy whose vision is improving every time he plays.

If you don't agree then you don't agree. I'm not gonna download replays of his latest games to prove my points with Screencaps.

He'd help LeVert by taking him off the ball and Garland by giving him a breather.

But you think he's trash and really, trying to change someone's mind on the internet is pointless.

I never said he's trash, that's your word. I think he's not very good and that playing him more against good teams isn't going to fix anything. I think playing LeVert more against good teams isn't going to fix anything. Outside of possibly Windler, I don't know that anyone on the roster has been deprived of an opportunity. I've got no issue with the Cavs playing LeVert or Goodwin more if they want to taper off Garland and Mobley before the post season starts. It might even do LeVert some good.

What I'm taking exception with is the idea that there's some secret combination of role players Bickerstaff isn't playing that would result in different outcomes because that's cope.

 

[Rich]

I never said he's trash, that's your word. I think he's not very good and that playing him more against good teams isn't going to fix anything. I think playing LeVert more against good teams isn't going to fix anything. Outside of possibly Windler, I don't know that anyone on the roster has been deprived of an opportunity. I've got no issue with the Cavs playing LeVert or Goodwin more if they want to taper off Garland and Mobley before the post season starts. It might even do LeVert some good.

What I'm taking exception with is the idea that there's some secret combination of role players Bickerstaff isn't playing that would result in different outcomes because that's cope.

They literally won, in Charlotte, with Goodwin starting.

The cope here is acting like there is no coaching that could change some of these outcomes.

More importantly, it's not just about the outcome. In fact, Bickerstaffs biggest issue is he's been solely focused on just the outcome. He's done little to no big picture coaching all season.

That's how you can take a guy who currently looks unplayable and, by seasons end, turn him into a contributor.

but that's hard to do if you are solely focused on the outcome of each game and nothing else.. and he is.

Riding Garland so hard is leading to a lot of the issues we're seeing late in games now.

 

[CavsKermit]

They literally won, in Charlotte, with Goodwin starting.

The cope here is acting like there is no coaching that could change some of these outcomes.

More importantly, it's not just about the outcome. In fact, Bickerstaffs biggest issue is he's been solely focused on just the outcome. He's done little to no big picture coaching all season.

That's how you can take a guy who currently looks unplayable and, by seasons end, turn him into a contributor.

but that's hard to do if you are solely focused on the outcome of each game and nothing else.. and he is.

Riding Garland so hard is leading to a lot of the issues we're seeing late in games now.

They barely won in Charlotte with Allen having his best game of the season and K. Love getting gifted free throws off a rebound after Goodwin chucked up an ill-advised hero-ball shot. Garland has missed some games. Goodwin has had his chances/minutes.

I'm very skeptical that there is coaching that could change these outcomes as we're basically a .400 team without Allen and Rubio, and if we also don't have Mobley or Garland on the floor, we're no better than the team that won 20 games three seasons in a row. I mean we still play bad teams and we still need our starters to win those games. It's not like our bench is capable of building or holding a sizeable lead and Bickerstaff is forcing the starters back in anyway.

If these rotations guys were as good as everyone is claiming, then we'd be able to at least beat the bad teams without needing Garland or Mobley. That was the case with Rubio, it hasn't been the case with the rest of these guys.

Now I personally wouldn't have had an issue with making this another developmental season where everyone understood we were going to lose 5 or so winnable games and finish with the 8-10th seed. If the goal was to develop guys like Mobley, Okoro, Windler, or even Goodwin more, while recognizing that our ceiling took a huge hit once Rubio went down, I probably even would've agreed with that. But the F.O. made the decision to not do that when they traded for LeVert. For better or worse, the organization wants to win as many games as it can now. That's not on the coach. It's also not on the coach that LeVert got injured again.

 

[Rich]

Goodwin has started 5 games.

They won 3 and lost 2.

I mean I can already tell you've got your narrative here that Goodwin is largely unplayable so you'll come up with all sorts of reasons as to why that is that don't involve Goodwin being a passable NBA PG so this is rather pointless.


But the Cavaliers are 3 and 2 with Goodwin as a starter.

They can win with him playing limited minutes. They've done it. It's happened.

 

[kookoo]

They literally won, in Charlotte, with Goodwin starting.

The cope here is acting like there is no coaching that could change some of these outcomes.

More importantly, it's not just about the outcome. In fact, Bickerstaffs biggest issue is he's been solely focused on just the outcome. He's done little to no big picture coaching all season.

That's how you can take a guy who currently looks unplayable and, by seasons end, turn him into a contributor.

but that's hard to do if you are solely focused on the outcome of each game and nothing else.. and he is.

Riding Garland so hard is leading to a lot of the issues we're seeing late in games now.

This is Nick Nurse's biggest strength. I'm sure JBB gets some props for Garland's development. But Mobley has looked worse than the player we saw at the start of the season with tighter handles and a jumper. Some of it is likely fatigue, but it seems like JBB isn't about teaching players. A specific example is Jarrett Allen literally having to ask JBB to be tougher on him.

The big lineup worked for a few months and got us to where we are. But that stopped working in the league when teams started hitting 3s on us. I see very little positive adjustment from him since that point. And none since LeVert got here. It's a real shame. But the people who support him 100% are going to talk about the first 40 games more than the last 30.

 

[buzzdog]

This is Nick Nurse's biggest strength. I'm sure JBB gets some props for Garland's development. But Mobley has looked worse than the player we saw at the start of the season with tighter handles and a jumper. Some of it is likely fatigue, but it seems like JBB isn't about teaching players. A specific example is Jarrett Allen literally having to ask JBB to be tougher on him.

The big lineup worked for a few months and got us to where we are. But that stopped working in the league when teams started hitting 3s on us. I see very little positive adjustment from him since that point. And none since LeVert got here. It's a real shame. But the people who support him 100% are going to talk about the first 40 games more than the last 30.

Since when has the big lineup not worked, assuming we had a playable point guard on the floor with them? Because I can't remember very many games when we've had them all on the floor together in recent times. And if we did have the whole big lineup intact along with DG I suspect we'd already have clinched a playoff spot (as opposed to a play-in).

 

[Jscc]

I never said he's trash, that's your word. I think he's not very good and that playing him more against good teams isn't going to fix anything. I think playing LeVert more against good teams isn't going to fix anything. Outside of possibly Windler, I don't know that anyone on the roster has been deprived of an opportunity. I've got no issue with the Cavs playing LeVert or Goodwin more if they want to taper off Garland and Mobley before the post season starts. It might even do LeVert some good.

What I'm taking exception with is the idea that there's some secret combination of role players Bickerstaff isn't playing that would result in different outcomes because that's cope.

After (1) JBB coming out and saying they are treating the last Toronto game like it's a post-season game, (2) his first adjustment being to replace the only other ball-handler in the starting lineup with a non-ball handler that does not defend the perimeter, and (3) that adjustment simultaneously makes it easier to limit DG's impact... it is a conspiracy to you to think the outcomes of games could be otherwise with different lineup choices? ...what?

 

[kookoo]

Since when has the big lineup not worked, assuming we had a playable point guard on the floor with them? Because I can't remember very many games when we've had them all on the floor together in recent times. And if we did have the whole big lineup intact along with DG I suspect we'd already have clinched a playoff spot (as opposed to a play-in).

Early January when we got whooped by the Bulls missing key players and Warriors, narrowly beat the Kings and the Pacers who were in a freefall, beat teams missing most of their players. Teams were starting to figure it out and then we got hit with injuries but instead of playing Stevens at the 3, he put in Wade. We may have been missing Allen, but we went to overtime against a Clippers team who was playing G-league players. We have regressed massively.

Every team has had injuries. But the bigger issue to me is our squad is just giving up on the idea of fundamentals like boxing out and guarding the 3 point line. It's just very bad.

 

[CavsKermit]

After (1) JBB coming out and saying they are treating the last Toronto game like it's a post-season game, (2) his first adjustment being to replace the only other ball-handler in the starting lineup with a non-ball handler that does not defend the perimeter, and (3) that adjustment simultaneously makes it easier to limit DG's impact... it is a conspiracy to you to think the outcomes of games could be otherwise with different lineup choices? ...what?

See, this is my issue. Everyone is being uber vague re the specific lineups, or actual the adjustments that should've been made. When they do attempt to be specific, it's more Goodwin or more LeVert, and while playing against good teams, I remain unconvinced that's going to get it done.

 

[CavsKermit]

Goodwin has started 5 games.

They won 3 and lost 2.

I mean I can already tell you've got your narrative here that Goodwin is largely unplayable so you'll come up with all sorts of reasons as to why that is that don't involve Goodwin being a passable NBA PG so this is rather pointless.


But the Cavaliers are 3 and 2 with Goodwin as a starter.

They can win with him playing limited minutes. They've done it. It's happened.

We had Allen during that stretch and we played Charlotte, the Pacers (with a gutted roster due to trades), the Pistons, the Rockets, and Pelicans. But for a shooting foul call on Love against the Hornets, that the NBA said was erroneous in the 2 minute report, we go 2 for 5 against bad teams. The last good team we beat was the Nuggets and Goodwin was -25 in that game. I don't need you to recast my narrative. I've been pretty explicit. There are players who are passable or even good against bad teams but are neither against good teams.

 

[Blazie]

I just wanna drop my takes in here, where they belong. I'm not going to spend an hour and a half copy pasting advanced stats in this post. I also don't give a shit what the advanced stats say, since they all seem to be influenced by so many other unmeasured factors.

1. Most of us knew they were overachieving earlier in the year, which is why there was so much talk about strength of schedule. The only question towards the end of this year is by how much... Right now this team looks like they'll have had that ridiculous run early on just to finish 9th, which means they aren't even that good. All the while sacrificing much needed development for the sake of winning a couple extra games against depleted, unmotivated teams in December.

2. JBB is now, and has always been, shit offensively. I don't even have to qualify this one. This has been known around the league for as long as he's been doing anything. The fact that he refuses to address it seriously by trying to get some help smacks of a stubbornness that simply puts a ceiling on how good this team will ever be. Which leads me to:

3. He's running guys into the fucking dirt. And it's not good for their health and development. We've all seen it. And if we leave this fucking nutjob in charge of our lineups, then you've already witnessed Garland's peak. And Mobley may never reach his.

4. Caris LeVert is, in fact, trash. Giving up what looks like probably the 15th pick for this guy - and then still having to pay him, which we have to do because otherwise we handed that pick over for nothing - is a fucking tragedy. I mean, nobody's doing a SnT for this guy for anything of value so we literally flushed that asset down the toilet. Love Koby. But he fumbled that one badly.

 

[sailfish]

I just wanna drop my takes in here, where they belong. I'm not going to spend an hour and a half copy pasting advanced stats in this post. I also don't give a shit what the advanced stats say, since they all seem to be influenced by so many other unmeasured factors.

1. Most of us knew they were overachieving earlier in the year, which is why there was so much talk about strength of schedule. The only question towards the end of this year is by how much... Right now this team looks like they'll have had that ridiculous run early on just to finish 9th, which means they aren't even that good. All the while sacrificing much needed development for the sake of winning a couple extra games against depleted, unmotivated teams in December.

2. JBB is now, and has always been, shit offensively. I don't even have to qualify this one. This has been known around the league for as long as he's been doing anything. The fact that he refuses to address it seriously by trying to get some help smacks of a stubbornness that simply puts a ceiling on how good this team will ever be. Which leads me to:

3. He's running guys into the fucking dirt. And it's not good for their health and development. We've all seen it. And if we leave this fucking nutjob in charge of our lineups, then you've already witnessed Garland's peak. And Mobley may never reach his.

4. Caris LeVert is, in fact, trash. Giving up what looks like probably the 15th pick for this guy - and then still having to pay him, which we have to do because otherwise we handed that pick over for nothing - is a fucking tragedy. I mean, nobody's doing a SnT for this guy for anything of value so we literally flushed that asset down the toilet. Love Koby. But he fumbled that one badly.

The LeVert trade looks worse by the day. He’s not that good and the Cavs gave up two very good picks for him, thinking that they were contenders this year. What they needed was for their young guys to continue growing and getting experience. Now we’re going to be without a mid-first round pick and one of the first picks in round 2, which could’ve been used to add a much needed wing and/or backup PG. Kevin Pritchard definitely got one over on Koby.

The Cavs will sneak into the playoffs as an 8th seed where we’ll be lucky to win a game. This team just looks worn down.

 

[buzzdog]

I just wanna drop my takes in here, where they belong. I'm not going to spend an hour and a half copy pasting advanced stats in this post. I also don't give a shit what the advanced stats say, since they all seem to be influenced by so many other unmeasured factors.

1. Most of us knew they were overachieving earlier in the year, which is why there was so much talk about strength of schedule. The only question towards the end of this year is by how much... Right now this team looks like they'll have had that ridiculous run early on just to finish 9th, which means they aren't even that good. All the while sacrificing much needed development for the sake of winning a couple extra games against depleted, unmotivated teams in December.

2. JBB is now, and has always been, shit offensively. I don't even have to qualify this one. This has been known around the league for as long as he's been doing anything. The fact that he refuses to address it seriously by trying to get some help smacks of a stubbornness that simply puts a ceiling on how good this team will ever be. Which leads me to:

3. He's running guys into the fucking dirt. And it's not good for their health and development. We've all seen it. And if we leave this fucking nutjob in charge of our lineups, then you've already witnessed Garland's peak. And Mobley may never reach his.

4. Caris LeVert is, in fact, trash. Giving up what looks like probably the 15th pick for this guy - and then still having to pay him, which we have to do because otherwise we handed that pick over for nothing - is a fucking tragedy. I mean, nobody's doing a SnT for this guy for anything of value so we literally flushed that asset down the toilet. Love Koby. But he fumbled that one badly.

I agree completely with your comment except for the part about LeVert. While Caris has an ugly game, loose handles, poor shot selection, and he's not a point guard substitute, he does give us some things. He was acquired when we had a huge hole and not the best array of players available to plug it. LeVert can attack the paint (ugly as hell) and get buckets. He can sink three point shots. He is better than advertised (and I would say under-rated) defensively.

But we don't have a clue how to use him, or how to make him fit. DG seems discombobulated when LeVert is on the floor. I have no confidence that our coaching staff will figure it out.

But I think LeVert will have some value in a trade package. And to me it seems like that's where it will end up with him.