Lindor trade ideas

[CATS44]

A few thoughts of questionable value and in no particular order...

1) Besides the fact that the franchise is broke, we just don't know much about the FOs thinking. Chief among that is their evaluations of Quantrill, Moss, Logan, and McKenzie. Which one(s) do they legitimately think can be truly successful as a starter over a full season at the MLB level. The answer to that question is the foundation of the off season moves.

2) As of now the Tribe has to fill two holes in the infield and needs to upgrade the entire outfield. Trading Frankie means that we are short at six of eight positions. (I know we have lots of seemingly MLB ready prospects and warm bodies that own a glove, but I'm talking about legitimately productive MLB players) This org isn't going to put six rookies and/or unproven youngsters in the starting lineup. So those hoping to see Jones and Bradley and Johnson and Tyler Freenan and Naylor somehow all in the lineup are gonna be disappointed. Even with our pitching we would lose 90 games with that kind of lineup.

3) Considering the present situation, with literally more than 100 soon to be free agents all scrapping for crumbs, not one of our present MLB outfielders has any trade value, beyond a (small) bag of balls. They are all replaceable at not much more than the MLB minimum.

4) Which brings us back to point #1. IF the FO thinks that multiple young SPs are legitimately able to be successful in 2021, Cookie becomes tradeable...and he may bring more in return than Lindor. Between the two of them, we could end up with three impact young bats...maybe four. Problem solved. Then we could fill with the youngsters now in house.

5) What we have, or will have, lost in offensive players really didn't provide much offense last season. Replacing their offense isn't that big of a deal. Consider that Hernandez, Lindor, and Carlos put up respective OPS of .763...750...699, and Luplows .663 led all our outfielders. That kind of offense can be improved almost by default.

What we will lose is defense and leadership on a team that highly values both.

6) I noticed that among all the Lindor trade proposals listed in the column cited earlier, only one was considered acceptable by the other team. IMO its highly unlikely that in today's world the Tribe is gonna get what we fans think is fair value There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[CDAV45]

@CDav.. If the deal is Francisco Lindor for Lourdes Gurriel jr (OF), Simeon Woods-Richardson (SP) and Jordan Groshans (SS/3B)... That would be a huge haul..and not likely to happen.. If the Indians add in someone like Logan Allen or Scotty Moss it might improve the chances. Both or these SP's would be needed by the Jays and would benefit from pitching against the NYY's as LHSP's in the Bronx...

Lourdes Gurriel Jr. is the prize.. He's a ML'er.. has had a break out season and can be counted on for four or five years at a very reasonable price. He hits and can play adequate to more than adequate in the OF.. primarily as a LF'er..

The pitcher, SWR, could be a flip or could be kept (I'd keep him because he's everything you want in a young, & I do mean young hurler) .. At his best he has a strong well controlled and commanded four pitch mix.. and that's pretty much all the time.. He has a major league body and the Mets were NUTS for letting him go in the Marcus Stroman trade to the Jays.. He is or will be near ML ready for 2021.. A team like the Yankees would KILL to get this kind of guy. Wouldn't it be poetic that instead of sending one of the Indians pitching prospects to the NYY's to fill out the rest of the Indians outfield needs.. we send one of Toronto's to NY to beat hell out of the Jays?.. I kind of like that.. Of course.. we get Clint Frazier...

Groshans probably won't happen. He is a SS by trade but, with his size is probably better suited for 3B.


btw, not that it matters.. What's wrong with redundancy with blue chip prospects?

I have no problem adding Allen,Moss, or a prospect in the deal, but MC/CA are pretty good at getting value back in a trade. Usually value that many of us didn't expect.

Getting Gurriel could very well be unrealistic, but I don't want another good glove, can't hit C. I don't want another frumpy, LHH 1B either.

Groshans would be adding a RH Nolan Jones and who wouldn't be pleased with that? He would immediately move to 3B if it were up to me. While Groshans' bat is better than Arias', the ability to play defense at SS is clearly in Arias' favor. I'd love to see an IF consisting of Groshans at 3B, Arias at SS, Freeman at 2B, and Jones at 1B. Problem is that's 2-3 yrs down the road and this team has a pitching staff ready to win right now.

I'm finding it difficult to concede that the Indians don't expect to compete in 21, and that Lindor will be moved for nothing but prospects. If that is indeed the case then they may want to consider maximizing Ramirez's value as well. Call it a condensed rebuild, by getting prospects like Groshans who are 2 yrs away.

I'll be glad when I can get a sense of direction after the Lindor trade happens. I'm sure most Indians' fans feel the same.

 

[CDAV45]

A few thoughts of questionable value and in no particular order...

1) Besides the fact that the franchise is broke, we just don't know much about the FOs thinking. Chief among that is their evaluations of Quantrill, Moss, Logan, and McKenzie. Which one(s) do they legitimately think can be truly successful as a starter over a full season at the MLB level. The answer to that question is the foundation of the off season moves.

2) As of now the Tribe has to fill two holes in the infield and needs to upgrade the entire outfield. Trading Frankie means that we are short at six of eight positions. (I know we have lots of seemingly MLB ready prospects and warm bodies that own a glove, but I'm talking about legitimately productive MLB players) This org isn't going to put six rookies and/or unproven youngsters in the starting lineup. So those hoping to see Jones and Bradley and Johnson and Tyler Freenan and Naylor somehow all in the lineup are gonna be disappointed. Even with our pitching we would lose 90 games with that kind of lineup.

3) Considering the present situation, with literally more than 100 soon to be free agents all scrapping for crumbs, not one of our present MLB outfielders has any trade value, beyond a (small) bag of balls. They are all replaceable at not much more than the MLB minimum.

4) Which brings us back to point #1. IF the FO thinks that multiple young SPs are legitimately able to be successful in 2021, Cookie becomes tradeable...and he may bring more in return than Lindor. Between the two of them, we could end up with three impact young bats...maybe four. Problem solved. Then we could fill with the youngsters now in house.

5) What we have, or will have, lost in offensive players really didn't provide much offense last season. Replacing their offense isn't that big of a deal. Consider that Hernandez, Lindor, and Carlos put up respective OPS of .763...750...699, and Luplows .663 led all our outfielders. That kind of offense can be improved almost by default.

What we will lose is defense and leadership on a team that highly values both.

6) I noticed that among all the Lindor trade proposals listed in the column cited earlier, only one was considered acceptable by the other team. IMO its highly unlikely that in today's world the Tribe is gonna get what we fans think is fair value There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Great to hear from you CATS. A couple things in response:
-SP depth isn't an issue and I'd guess that Cookie is available because of that depth and the lack of monetary resources as you mentioned.

-If you intend to be competitive and you have no payroll flexibility, then what are the options for putting a lineup together? As you stated, "that kind of offense can be improved almost by default".

-There isn't going to be wailing and gnashing of teeth when Lindor is dealt. We're talking about MC and CA, not just Lindor. That's historically not how they've conducted trades.

 

[CalBuckeyeRob]

Agree to a degree.

Lindor's return should be in quality prospects, not ML ready types. On a whole I think we are overestimating his value considering all the factors. Get the BEST players you can for Lindor, if they are ML players or A-ballers it makes no difference at this point. We are starting to play catch up with the CHiSox and Twins - load the system, forget the stopgap.

While I would take an elite A ball level prospect over a ML ready mediocre bat, I do think your target has to be a high end prospect that can be projected by the start of 2022. Of concern as well is if COVID-19 shuts down another season of minor keague baseball.

 

[Huber.]

Predict the date Lindor is traded:

 

[DCTribefan]

While I would take an elite A ball level prospect over a ML ready mediocre bat, I do think your target has to be a high end prospect that can be projected by the start of 2022. Of concern as well is if COVID-19 shuts down another season of minor keague baseball.

At minimum, I think it prudent for MLB teams to anticipate a short season of MiLB at best in 2021.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

What we have, or will have, lost in offensive players really didn't provide much offense last season. Replacing their offense isn't that big of a deal. Consider that Hernandez, Lindor, and Carlos put up respective OPS of .763...750...699, and Luplows .663 led all our outfielders. That kind of offense can be improved almost by default. What we will lose is defense and leadership on a team that highly values both.

Agree on not losing any offense with the exception of Hernandez. The guy hit .386/.926 with RISP and .357/.864 with RISP and two out. If not for him the runs would have been even more scarce this year. He also brought a Gold Glove to the second base position. Best second baseman we've had since Kipnis' 4.1 WAR season in 2016.

I expect they will trade Lindor and Carrasco and go with what they have now plus the haul they get for those two. This season will be about evaluating the emerging (well, hopefully emerging) young players like Naylor, Luplow, Daniel Johnson, Mercado, McKenzie, Quantrill, Clase, Nelson, Maton, and Karinchak plus whoever they get in the trades that is major league ready. They hope to stay competitive behind superb starting pitching, good defense, and just enough offense, but in the same division as the Twins and White Sox I'm afraid this will be a year where they take one step back in order to take three steps up starting in 2022.

 

[CDAV45]

What we have, or will have, lost in offensive players really didn't provide much offense last season. Replacing their offense isn't that big of a deal. Consider that Hernandez, Lindor, and Carlos put up respective OPS of .763...750...699, and Luplows .663 led all our outfielders. That kind of offense can be improved almost by default. What we will lose is defense and leadership on a team that highly values both.

Agree on not losing any offense with the exception of Hernandez. The guy hit .386/.926 with RISP and .357/.864 with RISP and two out. If not for him the runs would have been even more scarce this year. He also brought a Gold Glove to the second base position. Best second baseman we've had since Kipnis' 4.1 WAR season in 2016.

I expect they will trade Lindor and Carrasco and go with what they have now plus the haul they get for those two. This season will be about evaluating the emerging (well, hopefully emerging) young players like Naylor, Luplow, Daniel Johnson, Mercado, McKenzie, Quantrill, Clase, Nelson, Maton, and Karinchak plus whoever they get in the trades that is major league ready. They hope to stay competitive behind superb starting pitching, good defense, and just enough offense, but in the same division as the Twins and White Sox I'm afraid this will be a year where they take one step back in order to take three steps up starting in 2022.

He played extremely well for us and I'd love to see him back. Obviously there is probably a team out there willing to give him more money than the Indians can afford. Even if that money is over a 3 yr contract for which the Indians will not/can not offer. Solid player in every aspect and I hope he gets what he deserves in FA, but any offer from the Indians will probably be a low ball one. With Miller, Freeman, and Chang on the roster it doesn't seem likely that they'll offer more than a 1 yr deal. Trust me when I say I hope that I'm wrong.

 

[sportscoach]

He played extremely well for us and I'd love to see him back. Obviously there is probably a team out there willing to give him more money than the Indians can afford. Even if that money is over a 3 yr contract for which the Indians will not/can not offer. Solid player in every aspect and I hope he gets what he deserves in FA, but any offer from the Indians will probably be a low ball one. With Miller, Freeman, and Chang on the roster it doesn't seem likely that they'll offer more than a 1 yr deal. Trust me when I say I hope that I'm wrong.

With so many of the you guy position players solid on paper at 2B, it will be hard to merit signing him long term.

Now if this was 16/17 and we had Lindor for years, I wouldn't hesitate to resign Hernandez for a few seasons, but this being a retooling season and the amount of possible internal players at 2B, I cannot merit signing him past being a stopgap.

 

[PPark]

someone named Vincent Parise had an article posted at Fansided for the Cubs.. The basis of the article was to generate interest in a trade that would improve the Cubs chances to retain their World Series core for one last go.. In that light.. they offered three potential trades for Lindor..

Some interesting names were mentioned.. perhaps not the one an Indians GM would start with.. Not one deal was presented where the Indians received an OF'er that is ml ready.. even though the Cubs # 2 prospect, Brennan Davis, is an incredibly athletic OF'er who could be at the core of a Lindor Trade.. A SS, a smallish LHP, etc.. guys that are interesting..but not the kind of "wow" prospects the Indians have to have to start the deal..

Link: https://dawindycity.com/2020/11/12/chicago-cubs-rumors-trade-packages-francisco-lindor/4/

Thoughts?

Usually the trades over value Lindor but these under valued him. In that third trade scenario—value wise with no other considerations—they would need to add Javier Baez with the three prospects to get to Lindor’s value.

These were definitely underwhelming.

 

[PPark]

A few thoughts of questionable value and in no particular order...

1) Besides the fact that the franchise is broke, we just don't know much about the FOs thinking. Chief among that is their evaluations of Quantrill, Moss, Logan, and McKenzie. Which one(s) do they legitimately think can be truly successful as a starter over a full season at the MLB level. The answer to that question is the foundation of the off season moves.

2) As of now the Tribe has to fill two holes in the infield and needs to upgrade the entire outfield. Trading Frankie means that we are short at six of eight positions. (I know we have lots of seemingly MLB ready prospects and warm bodies that own a glove, but I'm talking about legitimately productive MLB players) This org isn't going to put six rookies and/or unproven youngsters in the starting lineup. So those hoping to see Jones and Bradley and Johnson and Tyler Freenan and Naylor somehow all in the lineup are gonna be disappointed. Even with our pitching we would lose 90 games with that kind of lineup.

3) Considering the present situation, with literally more than 100 soon to be free agents all scrapping for crumbs, not one of our present MLB outfielders has any trade value, beyond a (small) bag of balls. They are all replaceable at not much more than the MLB minimum.

4) Which brings us back to point #1. IF the FO thinks that multiple young SPs are legitimately able to be successful in 2021, Cookie becomes tradeable...and he may bring more in return than Lindor. Between the two of them, we could end up with three impact young bats...maybe four. Problem solved. Then we could fill with the youngsters now in house.

5) What we have, or will have, lost in offensive players really didn't provide much offense last season. Replacing their offense isn't that big of a deal. Consider that Hernandez, Lindor, and Carlos put up respective OPS of .763...750...699, and Luplows .663 led all our outfielders. That kind of offense can be improved almost by default.

What we will lose is defense and leadership on a team that highly values both.

6) I noticed that among all the Lindor trade proposals listed in the column cited earlier, only one was considered acceptable by the other team. IMO its highly unlikely that in today's world the Tribe is gonna get what we fans think is fair value There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

It’s the thing I believe many are missing about the market. High end prospects, solid near ready players, and MLB performers earning around the minimum are gold. Their value is at a premium.

Many of them are far beyond Lindor’s value. You’re simply not going to acquire them in multiples for Lindor.

However, there’s an area in the market they could take advantage of if they’re willing to accept less control and pay the players a few bucks.

If the goal is to compete, and greatly reduce your cost than pair Lindor and Carrasco (has less value than Lindor and all of his rotation mates) to move salary so you can afford to take some back and acquire solid MLB players.

Right now there’s simply too many questions.

 

[CDAV45]

It’s the thing I believe many are missing about the market. High end prospects, solid near ready players, and MLB performers earning around the minimum are gold. Their value is at a premium.

Many of them are far beyond Lindor’s value. You’re simply not going to acquire them in multiples for Lindor.

However, there’s an area in the market they could take advantage of if they’re willing to accept less control and pay the players a few bucks.

If the goal is to compete, and greatly reduce your cost than pair Lindor and Carrasco (has less value than Lindor and all of his rotation mates) to move salary so you can afford to take some back and acquire solid MLB players.

Right now there’s simply too many questions.

I don't know if I agree entirely, although your last sentence is dead on. I suspect that a player like Lindor still has relatively the same value as before, and I feel the high end prospects do as well. It's the guys in between whose market has fallen out from under them. Mediocre players in arbitration like Naquin and DeShields may be struggling to find a team when the dust settles.

I don't know if Carrasco has less value than Lindor at this moment. He's a damn fine SP signed to a team friendly deal that has options. He pitches like a guy that gets paid $25M/yr but is signed for $12M. In the current situation, I'd guess that team friendly deal has as much or more value than ever before.

Teams are borrowing money and the market will adjust, but like you said, "right now there's simply too many questions".

 

[CATS44]

My wailing and gnashing of teeth comment wasn't aimed at trading Lindor. I think that everybody expects it. It was aimed at the return. With so much financial uncertainty, including whether there will be a complete seasons in both of the next two years...plus the financial losses of 2020...I dont think there are a whole lot if teams willing to leap into the unknown to trade for Frankie. For instance, the Mets. They certainly now have the money to pay Frankie, what they really need is a large influx of youngsters. They are gonna have to sign a slew of lower level FAs just to fill their AAA and AA rosters. The only way that Frankie makes sense for them is strictly as a PR move by the new owner.

Teams like financial certainty. IMO Cookie provides a whole lot more of that than Lindor, which makes him more valuable. Three years of a Frontline SP like Cookie at $38 mil...esp with only $26 mil guaranteed is a better value than one year of Lindor at $20 mil. And that's without taking into account that Cookie can be traded later for a fairly substantial return.

I dont think both can be traded as a package from one team, because no one team can afford the cost in young, inexpensive talent. Such a move would take multiple teams.

 

[CDAV45]

My wailing and gnashing of teeth comment wasn't aimed at trading Lindor. I think that everybody expects it. It was aimed at the return. With so much financial uncertainty, including whether there will be a complete seasons in both of the next two years...plus the financial losses of 2020...I dont think there are a whole lot if teams willing to leap into the unknown to trade for Frankie. For instance, the Mets. They certainly now have the money to pay Frankie, what they really need is a large influx of youngsters. They are gonna have to sign a slew of lower level FAs just to fill their AAA and AA rosters. The only way that Frankie makes sense for them is strictly as a PR move by the new owner.

Teams like financial certainty. IMO Cookie provides a whole lot more of that than Lindor, which makes him more valuable. Three years of a Frontline SP like Cookie at $38 mil...esp with only $26 mil guaranteed is a better value than one year of Lindor at $20 mil. And that's without taking into account that Cookie can be traded later for a fairly substantial return.

I dont think both can be traded as a package from one team, because no one team can afford the cost in young, inexpensive talent. Such a move would take multiple teams.

I understood your comment as that, and I think the return from a Lindor trade will be somewhere in between disappointed and happily surprised. It will be fair and I say that because of the 2 men that run this franchise.

I agree that Carrasco's value is at minimum equal to Lindor's, and likely higher due to the cost, length, and flexibility of his contract.

If Lindor and Carrasco are dealt, then this team should have filled a hole or 2 on the big league roster and strengthened an already deep farm system.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I'm worried that all these proposed packages for Lindor are overly optimistic. The Indians are in an odd position. They HAVE TO trade Frankie. They literally can't afford him. Covid has made the situation even worse. There is no, or very little income.
There will be a limited number of teams in the mix. Only 1 year of Frankie is guaranteed.
I don't think the Indians will be able to play hardball in negotiations. What's their other option? Keep him and pay Frankie $20 million?
Not likely.