Lindor trade ideas

[CATS44]

I was reading on another national forum, and the general consensus with the Clevinger trade was that we merely got quantity for quality, but I dont agree....mainly because of our FO, scouting dept, and development people. The trade is viewed as centered on Naylor as immediate help, but the two pitchers are IMO the key.

The same with the Bauer trade. Obviously, I was and still am ecstatic over getting Reyes, but the two pitchers are the key. What does anyone think the odds are that at least two of those four pitchers become, at the very least, solid MORS for years?

Remember that when we acquired them...via trade or draft...that not many thought much of Kluber, Clevinger, Plesac, Civale, and Bieber. So far, we have gotten three CYs, string of winning seasons, and a plethora of young talent out of that group with minimal cost.

Also, consider that Grady was the least known of the haul we got for Colon...and that Brantley was a throw in for CC.

I bring this up, because I think that what on the surface may seem like a meh return for Frankie and/or Cookie is likely to look a whole lot better not long after those trades are made.

 

[CATS44]

I'm worried that all these proposed packages for Lindor are overly optimistic. The Indians are in an odd position. They HAVE TO trade Frankie. They literally can't afford him. Covid has made the situation even worse. There is no, or very little income.
There will be a limited number of teams in the mix. Only 1 year of Frankie is guaranteed.
I don't think the Indians will be able to play hardball in negotiations. What's their other option? Keep him and pay Frankie $20 million?
Not likely.

A legitimate concern, but we also had to trade players in the past, and still did fairly well.

 

[Gson]

I understood your comment as that, and I think the return from a Lindor trade will be somewhere in between disappointed and happily surprised. It will be fair and I say that because of the 2 men that run this franchise.

I agree that Carrasco's value is at minimum equal to Lindor's, and likely higher due to the cost, length, and flexibility of his contract.

If Lindor and Carrasco are dealt, then this team should have filled a hole or 2 on the big league roster and strengthened an already deep farm system.

This sort of dovetails into the Carrasco/Lindor being dealt comment.. and @Cats "....The only way that Frankie makes sense for them is strictly as a PR move by the new [Mets] owner..."

MLB Network had a segment on the Indians high and low points (the JRam homer that propelled the Indians ahead of the CWSox in the standings/other stats showing why JRam was thought of so highly for league MVP & the Shane Bieber outing against the Yankees/Brad Hand collapse that ended the Indians season & ultimately the last game Francisco Lindor would be wearing an Indians uniform).. Ron Darling and Matt Vasgergian commented further about what the lack of offense and the ulitmate need to consider entirely retooling the approach.. Meaning, that IF the Indians trade Francisco, they would not longer have those star level players making their chances of winning much less than what it already is.. They inferred that the Indians should consider trading Francisco Lindor, trading Cookie and trading JRam..

The idea that the Indians would not "JUST" trade Lindor.. but trade all three of these guys.. is appealing for no other reason that it makes a RETOOL complete & complete right now.. and it imparts a level of fiscal sanity that allows the indians to survive and even thrive in this Covid-19 environment..

Setting up all three could truly stock this club.. and give the indians a chance to retool their offense while holding onto their entire pitching staff, save for Cookie..

This could work.. IF the CLEFO does what it has become so adept at.. making the right trades..

Thoughts?..

 

[Criznit]

How would trading JRam, Cookie and Lindor not be considered a teardown/rebuild???

I know it is semantics - but anyone care to draw a distinction between the two? The two being retool vs rebuild

 

[JDailey23]

How would trading JRam, Cookie and Lindor not be considered a teardown/rebuild???

I know it is semantics - but anyone care to draw a distinction between the two? The two being retool vs rebuild

No doubt it’s a rebuild. It’s happening sooner than later.

 

[CDAV45]

This sort of dovetails into the Carrasco/Lindor being dealt comment.. and @Cats "....The only way that Frankie makes sense for them is strictly as a PR move by the new [Mets] owner..."

MLB Network had a segment on the Indians high and low points (the JRam homer that propelled the Indians ahead of the CWSox in the standings/other stats showing why JRam was thought of so highly for league MVP & the Shane Bieber outing against the Yankees/Brad Hand collapse that ended the Indians season & ultimately the last game Francisco Lindor would be wearing an Indians uniform).. Ron Darling and Matt Vasgergian commented further about what the lack of offense and the ulitmate need to consider entirely retooling the approach.. Meaning, that IF the Indians trade Francisco, they would not longer have those star level players making their chances of winning much less than what it already is.. They inferred that the Indians should consider trading Francisco Lindor, trading Cookie and trading JRam..

The idea that the Indians would not "JUST" trade Lindor.. but trade all three of these guys.. is appealing for no other reason that it makes a RETOOL complete & complete right now.. and it imparts a level of fiscal sanity that allows the indians to survive and even thrive in this Covid-19 environment..

Setting up all three could truly stock this club.. and give the indians a chance to retool their offense while holding onto their entire pitching staff, save for Cookie..

This could work.. IF the CLEFO does what it has become so adept at.. making the right trades..

Thoughts?..

Precisely what I've been saying.......or trying to say. I think the appeal to the fans in a year or 2 would also be forthcoming. The initial hit would hardly be damaging at this point, but the combination of budding young players and the ability to actually add an expensive contract near its end to a playoff team would be a huge boost to fandom. All in theory of course.

I'm very confident that they could get a haul from the Dodgers for Ramirez. Cannot replace Ramirez equally, but the overall positive effect on the roster over the following years could be exponential IMO. It would be at that time they would be looking to deal Ramirez anyway. I think Ed mentioned that they're more likely to extend Ramirez than trade him and I'm fine with that too. I'm saying that if they do not intend to pay him big bucks after his current deal, then there will be no better time to trade him than now.

 

[CDAV45]

I'm worried that all these proposed packages for Lindor are overly optimistic. The Indians are in an odd position. They HAVE TO trade Frankie. They literally can't afford him. Covid has made the situation even worse. There is no, or very little income.
There will be a limited number of teams in the mix. Only 1 year of Frankie is guaranteed.
I don't think the Indians will be able to play hardball in negotiations. What's their other option? Keep him and pay Frankie $20 million?
Not likely.

Which teams is it that you don't think will be in play that would have otherwise been without covid? Me personally, I think that Lindor would have only been dealt to a team without financial restrictions anyway. MC and CA don't play hardball to begin with and that's why they garner so much respect throughout the league.

Here's the thing for the team that acquires Lindor. Yes, he's on the last year of arbitration. If he's not extended he'll receive the qualifying offer. If he walks then a draft pick or 2 is gained. If he accepts you have him for another year.

 

[Criznit]

Which teams is it that you don't think will be in play that would have otherwise been without covid? Me personally, I think that Lindor would have only been dealt to a team without financial restrictions anyway. MC and CA don't play hardball to begin with and that's why they garner so much respect throughout the league.

Here's the thing for the team that acquires Lindor. Yes, he's on the last year of arbitration. If he's not extended he'll receive the qualifying offer. If he walks then a draft pick or 2 is gained. If he accepts you have him for another year.

Good point - Lindor is essentially a one year deal with a "player option" of whatever the QO is. If he declines and you get a "prospect" in return or if he accepts you get him for another year for roughly the same salary.. Very good point CDAV.

 

[CDAV45]

How would trading JRam, Cookie and Lindor not be considered a teardown/rebuild???

I know it is semantics - but anyone care to draw a distinction between the two? The two being retool vs rebuild

Much depends on the return, but we also would continue to have one of the better pitching staffs in the league. Surely trading all of Ramirez, Lindor, and Carrasco would return some damn good prospects ready to play or young players recently promoted that were top prospects. For example, I think trading Ramirez would be easy. Call the Dodgers and say we'll put Ramirez on a plane to LA and you put Lux, Gray, and Ruiz on a plane to Cleveland. Ok.....sounds good......thanks. Lindor and one of Perez/Hedges brings back Frazier/Andujar, Florial, and Gil/Viscaino. Carrasco goes to Toronto for Groshans, Woods Richardson, and another piece.

Losing Ramirez, Lindor, and Carrasco seems like an insurmountable hurdle. Yet the idea of incorporating all of Frazier/Andujar, Lux, Ruiz, Florial, and Groshans into the group we currently have while strengthening the rotation depth with Gray, Gil/Viscaino, and Woods Richardson gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling. Even if it doesn't happen until 22 season. All for a grand total of somewhere between $40M-$50M, which would change the expensive, soon to be FA tide. Imagine the Indians being able to bring on a Lindor for a season or 2 instead of having to unload such a player. How would the fans react to that?

 

[Gson]

How would trading JRam, Cookie and Lindor not be considered a teardown/rebuild???

I know it is semantics - but anyone care to draw a distinction between the two? The two being retool vs rebuild

A tear down portends a complete and total restructuring and filling of all parts of the the club.. that includes both position players and pitchers.. Furthermore, the pitching would include retaining less than 1/2 of the current staff.. A retool, on the otherhand.. minimizes upsetting all aspects of the club.. but takes away no more than one or two guys from any one side of the equation.. At most.. the Tribe should experience no more than two and possibly less years of lacking competitiveness... With the strong farm system and CLEFO, this club will never again experience the decades long wandering in the desert that were seen after the 1960's...

With a tri-part trade, especially this trio (Lindor, Cookie and JRam).. and our FO.. the pitching staff and bullpen will be just fine.. if not better than just fine.. The offense.. can't be much worse.. maybe more inconsistent..

Trades to consider as part of the Lindor Retool:

LA Angels get Cookie
Indians get Brandon Marsh OF, Jack Kochanowicz SP/RP, Alexander Ramirez OF

LA Dodgers get Jose Ramirez
Indians get Gavin Lux 2B/SS, Keibert Ruiz C, Kody Hoese or Michael Busch 2b/3B

NY Yankees get Francisco Lindor and Brad Zimmer CF/OF
Indians get Clint Frazier OF/RF, Miguel Andujar 1B/DH/LF/3B, Geronimo Gil SP, Alexander Vizcaino SP/RP

Tribe nets a $ 40+ MM drop from the payroll and have four guys who have the ability to step into roles on day one. The only area the Indians do not satisfy fully and completely is the left side of the infield. The indians have several guys who may be able to step in an do a reasonably professional job... Owen Miller or Gavin Lux could possibly fill the SS spot & Yu Chang/Andujar would be okay for 3B.. The indians sub 0.600 OPS OF will become history..

 

[DCTribefan]

A tear down portends a complete and total restructuring and filling of all parts of the the club.. that includes both position players and pitchers.. Furthermore, the pitching would include retaining less than 1/2 of the current staff.. A retool, on the otherhand.. minimizes upsetting all aspects of the club.. but takes away no more than one or two guys from any one side of the equation.. At most.. the Tribe should experience no more than two and possibly less years of lacking competitiveness... With the strong farm system and CLEFO, this club will never again experience the decades long wandering in the desert that were seen after the 1960's...

With a tri-part trade, especially this trio (Lindor, Cookie and JRam).. and our FO.. the pitching staff and bullpen will be just fine.. if not better than just fine.. The offense.. can't be much worse.. maybe more inconsistent..

Trades to consider as part of the Lindor Retool:

LA Angels get Cookie
Indians get Brandon Marsh OF, Jack Kochanowicz SP/RP, Alexander Ramirez OF

LA Dodgers get Jose Ramirez
Indians get Gavin Lux 2B/SS, Keibert Ruiz C, Kody Hoese or Michael Busch 2b/3B

NY Yankees get Francisco Lindor and Brad Zimmer CF/OF
Indians get Clint Frazier OF/RF, Miguel Andujar 1B/DH/LF/3B, Geronimo Gil SP, Alexander Vizcaino SP/RP

Tribe nets a $ 40+ MM drop from the payroll and have four guys who have the ability to step into roles on day one. The only area the Indians do not satisfy fully and completely is the left side of the infield. The indians have several guys who may be able to step in an do a reasonably professional job... Owen Miller or Gavin Lux could possibly fill the SS spot & Yu Chang/Andujar would be okay for 3B.. The indians sub 0.600 OPS OF will become history..

Gson, no offense intended but you seem to have too much free time on your hands developing all these wild trade ideas. And I do say this respectfully.

 

[Gson]

Gson, no offense intended but you seem to have too much free time on your hands developing all these wild trade ideas. And I do say this respectfully.

I don't work harder.. I work smarter.. makes my wife crazy... sort of like the trade ideas..

 

[EdMonix11]

A tear down portends a complete and total restructuring and filling of all parts of the the club.. that includes both position players and pitchers.. Furthermore, the pitching would include retaining less than 1/2 of the current staff.. A retool, on the otherhand.. minimizes upsetting all aspects of the club.. but takes away no more than one or two guys from any one side of the equation.. At most.. the Tribe should experience no more than two and possibly less years of lacking competitiveness... With the strong farm system and CLEFO, this club will never again experience the decades long wandering in the desert that were seen after the 1960's...

With a tri-part trade, especially this trio (Lindor, Cookie and JRam).. and our FO.. the pitching staff and bullpen will be just fine.. if not better than just fine.. The offense.. can't be much worse.. maybe more inconsistent..

Trades to consider as part of the Lindor Retool:

LA Angels get Cookie
Indians get Brandon Marsh OF, Jack Kochanowicz SP/RP, Alexander Ramirez OF

LA Dodgers get Jose Ramirez
Indians get Gavin Lux 2B/SS, Keibert Ruiz C, Kody Hoese or Michael Busch 2b/3B

NY Yankees get Francisco Lindor and Brad Zimmer CF/OF
Indians get Clint Frazier OF/RF, Miguel Andujar 1B/DH/LF/3B, Geronimo Gil SP, Alexander Vizcaino SP/RP

Tribe nets a $ 40+ MM drop from the payroll and have four guys who have the ability to step into roles on day one. The only area the Indians do not satisfy fully and completely is the left side of the infield. The indians have several guys who may be able to step in an do a reasonably professional job... Owen Miller or Gavin Lux could possibly fill the SS spot & Yu Chang/Andujar would be okay for 3B.. The indians sub 0.600 OPS OF will become history..

Holy poor asset management, Batman!

So what do we do with Nolan Jones (Frazier), Tyler Freeman (Lux), Daniel Johnson (Frazier, Marsh), Jake Bauers (Andujar, Frazier), Josh Naylor (Andujar, Frazier) and Franmil Reyes (Andujar) who are now blocked or what do we do if the guys being acquired are blocked?

There's no SS in that mix and no 3B, either, so now we're spending on FA's while blocking our top prospects and weakening our MLB team. Got it!

 

[Gson]

Holy poor asset management, Batman!

So what do we do with Nolan Jones (Frazier), Tyler Freeman (Lux), Daniel Johnson (Frazier, Marsh), Jake Bauers (Andujar, Frazier), Josh Naylor (Andujar, Frazier) and Franmil Reyes (Andujar) who are now blocked or what do we do if the guys being acquired are blocked?

There's no SS in that mix and no 3B, either, so now we're spending on FA's while blocking our top prospects and weakening our MLB team. Got it!

You really should think a little before another one of your grossly negative comments are offered... Noteworthy: your touching empathy for Jake Bauers is puzzling..

-Nolan Jones hasn't played above AA ball.. when he does.. then talk about his spot
-Tyler Freeman hasn't played above A+.. see Jones, Nolan.. from above..
-Daniel Johnson=fourth OF'er.. has a chance but not yet.. not last year, either
-Jake Bauers has PROVEN NOTHING and may continue to do so..

-Marsh rates as a PLUS defender in CF with an excellent arm and 60 rated speed. Got any CF'er with speed that can hit that he'd be blocking?.. Brad Zimmer? oh wait ! smh
-Frazier turned the corner last year and was pulverizing the ball. There is NO ONE in the entire indians system that has his offensive ceiling.. NO ONE.. He wouldn't block anyone because they can't beat his game..
-Gavin Lux is a READY NOW ML'er who's best spot is 2B (I'm sure Jose Tena is being blocked by Lux too !!). Freeman.. ISN'T ready now.. may not be ready until 2022+. When he is ready.. he can win the job.. or not realize the DREAM.. that's how baseball works..
Owen Miller IS a SS and IS should be ready by 2021.. so there IS a SS..
Naylor is a 1B hiding in LF.. There is space..

Franmill Reyes will play..

so will Andujar.. there are plenty of AB's for both.. The only reason I like Andujar.. he hits the ball.. if he doesn't.. he'd be non-tendered.. If he wasn't part of the deal.. it wouldn't break my heart, either..

Our MLB team is going to be weakened regardless with the loss of Lindor... you don't lose a top five or ten player on a team and expect to be as good as before.. Adding additional deals.. either as stand alone or together hasten a retooling.. That's where the Indians are going.. especially with the depth in our current pitching staff and the emptiness of the Tribe's ownership's piggybank...

Edit: the arms included in the original posting were omitted.. and no one knows why.. oh, wait.. it doesn't fit the half assed agenda implicit in the response.. nvrmnd..
...and the band played on.....

 

[Steve_424]

You really should think a little before another one of your grossly negative comments are offered... Noteworthy: your touching empathy for Jake Bauers is puzzling..

-Nolan Jones hasn't played above AA ball.. when he does.. then talk about his spot
-Tyler Freeman hasn't played above A+.. see Jones, Nolan.. from above..
-Daniel Johnson=fourth OF'er.. has a chance but not yet.. not last year, either
-Jake Bauers has PROVEN NOTHING and may continue to do so..

-Marsh rates as a PLUS defender in CF with an excellent arm and 60 rated speed. Got any CF'er with speed that can hit that he'd be blocking?.. Brad Zimmer? oh wait ! smh
-Frazier turned the corner last year and was pulverizing the ball. There is NO ONE in the entire indians system that has his offensive ceiling.. NO ONE.. He wouldn't block anyone because they can't beat his game..
-Gavin Lux is a READY NOW ML'er who's best spot is 2B (I'm sure Jose Tena is being blocked by Lux too !!). Freeman.. ISN'T ready now.. may not be ready until 2022+. When he is ready.. he can win the job.. or not realize the DREAM.. that's how baseball works..
Owen Miller IS a SS and IS should be ready by 2021.. so there IS a SS..
Naylor is a 1B hiding in LF.. There is space..

Franmill Reyes will play..

so will Andujar.. there are plenty of AB's for both.. The only reason I like Andujar.. he hits the ball.. if he doesn't.. he'd be non-tendered.. If he wasn't part of the deal.. it wouldn't break my heart, either..

Our MLB team is going to be weakened regardless with the loss of Lindor... you don't lose a top five or ten player on a team and expect to be as good as before.. Adding additional deals.. either as stand alone or together hasten a retooling.. That's where the Indians are going.. especially with the depth in our current pitching staff and the emptiness of the Tribe's ownership's piggybank...

Edit: the arms included in the original posting were omitted.. and no one knows why.. oh, wait.. it doesn't fit the half assed agenda implicit in the response.. nvrmnd..
...and the band played on.....

So Jones/Freeman don't get spots because of lack of experience but the guys you listed who also don't have ML experience are good to go?

Jones is ML-ready and Freeman should be by 2021.