Lindor trade ideas

[CDAV45]

Johnson doesn't have to be the full time CF but he can atleast be the backup. Our OF situation is desperate enough where we need to consider every option possible to get young talent out there. Don't pickup some 30 year old career scrub to back up Mercado. Let Johnson get those swings.

If for instance, Frazier and Andujar join the team and become our corner OFers. Then what is the harm in letting Mercado and Johnson battle it out? Coach's entire argument is that Johnson cannot play a good CF and he's just wrong. My argument isn't that Johnson is a better CF than Mercado, it is that Johnson is likely to help this team more with his offensive upside than Mercado, but I don't want to give either anything. They need to earn it. Truth be told, Johnson should have been in CF instead of DeShields. This organization(or maybe it's just Tito) gives too much weight to low ceiling veteran players IMO. Now they are forced to do what they should have been doing all along. Trust me when I say that I fully understand that giving these young, high upside players may not produce the results hoped. The key is at least there's hope and potential.

 

[EdMonix11]

Speed is never an issue for a 3B, however the lack of range is, and he does lack it. I hope he comes to camp, wins one of the corner OF spots, plays GG defense, and hits 30 bombs. Nothing would make me happier. When considering his lack of range, lack of speed, his size, and his hit profile he screams 1B IMO, but that's worth little to nothing.

C'mon Ed, you have to give me some creative points and admit that the lineup I put together would be fun to watch.

Honestly, Jones foot speed isn’t really an issue. His body isn’t an issue either. Yeah, he’s big but it’s an athletic body. He’s not fast but I wouldn’t say he’s slow, either. It’s not like we’re talking about Jim Thome here....

Meh on that roster, sorry. Don’t really see any glaring upgrades over what we already have.

Think Frazier is overrated- his home/away splits this year are concerning to me with so much of his damage being done at Yankee Stadium and I’m just not convinced he’s ever going to be able to recognize off speed pitches consistently enough to get to his power. Andujar hasn’t played in two years and has no defensive position. I think Renfroe stinks- he can’t hit RHP so he’s a small end platoon which puts him in a Jordan Luplow role but Luplow hits LHP a lot better so.... Luplow > Renfroe.

I strongly prefer an OF mix of Jones, Naylor, Luplow, Bauers and Johnson in the corner OF over your group. Sorry!

The Indians really don’t have a talent issue in the OF. They have an MLB-level experience issue in OF and there’s only one way to cure that....

 

[sportscoach]

Every stat you posted is circumstantial. What I gave you is actual times. It's simple and it doesn't matter how you try to slant it, Johnson is faster than Mercado, his arm is a lot stronger than Mercado's(who has a good arm), and his offensive ceiling is much higher than Mercado's in every measurable statistic. Again, you don't have enough data from Johnson's CF experience to determine anything there. Defensive metrics are notorious for being all over the place anyhow. That's the reason Chisenhall could be a GG caliber one season and a below average player the very next.

Which one would you rather have as your CFer? One that was slightly better by defensive metrics(with little information to even base that on), but lacked the offensive ceiling or vice versa? Would you rather a 254/321/357/678 hitter or a 284/344/460/804 hitter in CF if both were adequate defensively? Maybe what kind of hitter they have been doesn't matter, and/or maybe the defensive metrics don't tell the whole story. Either way, if a big bat or 2 is brought in to man the corner spots, there is nothing wrong with allowing Mercado and Johnson to battle it out. May the man who best helps this team be left standing. There is no reasonable argument against that and I find it odd that you would even try.

Johnson has had over 1000 innings in CF in the minors, and his numbers state he would be at the bottom of the league in CF defensively, and CF needs to be your best defensive in the OF.

If you did Johnson's minor league numbers, he would be in the middle/towards the bottom half in CF but near the Top with his RF numbers. I'm not saying he cannot play CF, but we would actually be wasting his skill in CF over RF.

Yes, Johnson has a lot more upside overall, but he would end up being a negative CF and a positive RF defensively. Why put a guy at a position he wouldn't be a positive in if he is a positive, above average at a different one?

 

[Urban]

Renfroe is slashing .170 / .261 / .364 in his last 372 PA. 32.5% K rate

His numbers are similar to Franmil in a lot of ways, with Franmil hitting for a better average. Which is pretty key since both players have lackluster walk rates

 

[sportscoach]

Renfroe is slashing .170 / .261 / .364 in his last 372 PA. 32.5% K rate

His numbers are similar to Franmil in a lot of ways, with Franmil hitting for a better average. Which is pretty key since both players have lackluster walk rates

If we can get him for the right price (aka like we did with Domingo last season) then I am not against bringing him in. I think I would actually lean towards Rosario though since he has always played well in Cleveland and knows the Division well.

 

[CDAV45]

Honestly, Jones foot speed isn’t really an issue. His body isn’t an issue either. Yeah, he’s big but it’s an athletic body. He’s not fast but I wouldn’t say he’s slow, either. It’s not like we’re talking about Jim Thome here....
Meh on that roster, sorry. Don’t really see any glaring upgrades over what we already have.
Think Frazier is overrated- his home/away splits this year are concerning to me with so much of his damage being done at Yankee Stadium and I’m just not convinced he’s ever going to be able to recognize off speed pitches consistently enough to get to his power. Andujar hasn’t played in two years and has no defensive position. I think Renfroe stinks- he can’t hit RHP so he’s a small end platoon which puts him in a Jordan Luplow role but Luplow hits LHP a lot better so.... Luplow > Renfroe.
I strongly prefer an OF mix of Jones, Naylor, Luplow, Bauers and Johnson in the corner OF over your group. Sorry!
The Indians really don’t have a talent issue in the OF. They have an MLB-level experience issue in OF and there’s only one way to cure that....

 

[CDAV45]

Johnson has had over 1000 innings in CF in the minors, and his numbers state he would be at the bottom of the league in CF defensively, and CF needs to be your best defensive in the OF.

If you did Johnson's minor league numbers, he would be in the middle/towards the bottom half in CF but near the Top with his RF numbers. I'm not saying he cannot play CF, but we would actually be wasting his skill in CF over RF.

Yes, Johnson has a lot more upside overall, but he would end up being a negative CF and a positive RF defensively. Why put a guy at a position he wouldn't be a positive in if he is a positive, above average at a different one?

Clearly we don’t agree on this issue. You’re assuming a lot here and have basically decided that Johnson cannot improve in CF given more consistent reps. I don’t reside to the idea that CF needs to be your best defender unless the defense of the corners is bad. You once told me that I basically rely to heavily on stats. Offensive stats give a calculated result that is affected minutely by human judgement. The occasional decision on a base hit vs an error is it. However, defensive metric are a joke and are derived almost entirely by human judgement. You don’t want to know who enters that data and how misrepresenting it can be. If you do it’s not hard to find.

Well it’s a damn good thing that Ramirez was moved to 3B even if he’s a better 2B. You’re basically talking about similar situations.

 

[Gson]

At the end of the conversation..it all comes down to: Will Daniel Johnson be given the opportunity to and succeed at hitting the baseball.. He's more than adequate to catch the ball in any one of the three outfield spots.. (which spot he's better at isn't salient if & until he hits).. His arm is only surpassed (for position players) by Gabriel Arias' howitzer..

We'll see.. Only 71 days until Pitcher and Catchers report for Spring Training in Goodyear !

 

[Urban]

If we can get him for the right price (aka like we did with Domingo last season) then I am not against bringing him in. I think I would actually lean towards Rosario though since he has always played well in Cleveland and knows the Division well.

Sure, but I think Rosario is in a tier with the likes of fellow free agents Joc Pederson and Kyle Schwarber which is more than likely going to be out of the Indians' spending range.

Whereas Renfroe is probably in a tier with Nomar Mazara, Jay Bruce, Adam Duvall, etc

 

[sportscoach]

Sure, but I think Rosario is in a tier with the likes of fellow free agents Joc Pederson and Kyle Schwarber which is more than likely going to be out of the Indians' spending range.

Whereas Renfroe is probably in a tier with Nomar Mazara, Jay Bruce, Adam Duvall, etc

The only question is, what do the Indians have to spend?

Renfroe isn't as consistent and has primarily played in RF, which is actually a position we have talent in currently in my mind. If we can get him on a minor league deal, then bring him in, but I dont think he is an upgrade, outside of his decent power upside, over who we have. I'd rather see guys like Johnson, Luplow etc, get a shot to have RF, because of their solid range and good arms.

Rosario got cut not because of production, but because his production didn't match his potential price tag. He also is a primarily a LF, which is the position in the OF, you can get away with a weaker defensive as long as the bat is solid. How much will he cost?

Looking also at clutch stats, Rosario has been about equal to his overall production numbers wise and Renfroe has been horrible. We need to cut cap and whatnot, but you still need to be able to compete. Now if we get Guirrel in a trade, we dont need Rosario, but if we dont get a legit OF in the Lindor trade, we need to get a Rosario to compete in the central.

 

[DCTribefan]

The only question is, what do the Indians have to spend?

Renfroe isn't as consistent and has primarily played in RF, which is actually a position we have talent in currently in my mind. If we can get him on a minor league deal, then bring him in, but I dont think he is an upgrade, outside of his decent power upside, over who we have. I'd rather see guys like Johnson, Luplow etc, get a shot to have RF, because of their solid range and good arms.

Rosario got cut not because of production, but because his production didn't match his potential price tag. He also is a primarily a LF, which is the position in the OF, you can get away with a weaker defensive as long as the bat is solid. How much will he cost?

Looking also at clutch stats, Rosario has been about equal to his overall production numbers wise and Renfroe has been horrible. We need to cut cap and whatnot, but you still need to be able to compete. Now if we get Guirrel in a trade, we dont need Rosario, but if we dont get a legit OF in the Lindor trade, we need to get a Rosario to compete in the central.

Anyone else lost interest in the endless speculation about a Lindor trade return???

 

[bob2the2nd]

Anyone else lost interest in the endless speculation about a Lindor trade return???

i dont even read the posts anymore. I just see if there is any actual news. When there isnt i move on

 

[sportscoach]

Anyone else lost interest in the endless speculation about a Lindor trade return???

i dont even read the posts anymore. I just see if there is any actual news. When there isnt i move on

Rule 5 draft is on Thursday, so I dont think any moves will be made by any team until then. Indians have open roster spots, but they rarely use Rule 5, but Thursday night there may be something. I just personally don't have anything better to do

 

[DerekG123]

Anyone else lost interest in the endless speculation about a Lindor trade return???

I have figured out that we are either getting atleast 2 MLB quality players and two more quality prospects or a decent backup and a couple of middling prospects or somewhere in between.

 

[xmasbuck]

Rule 5 draft is on Thursday, so I dont think any moves will be made by any team until then. Indians have open roster spots, but they rarely use Rule 5, but Thursday night there may be something. I just personally don't have anything better to do

i've been wondering about a time frame when the market really gets going for both trades and free agent signings - winter meetings (such as they are) go from today till thursday - wonder if that will get it going