Gson
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Hopefully, that 'vote of confidence' (i.e. the hitting can't get that much worse) is the most we can expect?.. IDK..
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Lindor trade ideas
- Thread starter DCTribefan
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From Thomas Boswell, Washington Post:
Amid the welter of modern stat tools, one idea often gets buried: The difference between a great or near-great player and an average or slightly above-average player is enormous in terms of glamour, fan appeal, all-star and even Hall of Fame consideration. But the difference — on the field, in run differential and in the standings — often just isn’t that big.
For instance, Bryce Harper is on a Reggie Jackson-like Cooperstown track. He is worth a lot more than the frequently mentioned “replacement player” who is a bench warmer or Class AAA call-up. But how much more is he worth than an average MLB player? That’s a different stat, called wins above average. In 2019, Harper was worth about 2.2 wins more than an average right fielder. For all nine years of his career, he’s worth about 2.1 wins per year more than an average player.
The Rays, A’s, Marlins, Indians, Twins, Royals and many others will never be able to afford a Harper in free agency. How can you get around it?
In 2019, the entire Rays team was 11.7 wins above average. That means that they should have won 11.7 more games than an 81-81 team — or about 93 wins. The Rays played well in one-run games and won 96.
How did they get those 11.7 extra wins above average? The Rays had 10 players whom they paid about $7 million in total. A few were good, cheap prospects. Those 10 produced 10.2 wins above average.
Who were these stalwarts? Willy Adames, Ji-Man Choi, Yandy Díaz, Austin Meadows, Tyler Glasnow, Nick Anderson, Yonny Chirinos, Oliver Drake, Emilio Pagán and Ryne Stanek. No, I don’t know many of them, either. The Rays also had several other (0.0) average guys. They helped because avoiding negative players boosts you, too.
It’s tough to win a World Series with 15 or more “average” players on your low-budget roster. But, this October, if the Rays, A’s or Marlins somehow advance, you might want to pull for them. In a way, they are the teams that are truly remarkable.
Amid the welter of modern stat tools, one idea often gets buried: The difference between a great or near-great player and an average or slightly above-average player is enormous in terms of glamour, fan appeal, all-star and even Hall of Fame consideration. But the difference — on the field, in run differential and in the standings — often just isn’t that big.
For instance, Bryce Harper is on a Reggie Jackson-like Cooperstown track. He is worth a lot more than the frequently mentioned “replacement player” who is a bench warmer or Class AAA call-up. But how much more is he worth than an average MLB player? That’s a different stat, called wins above average. In 2019, Harper was worth about 2.2 wins more than an average right fielder. For all nine years of his career, he’s worth about 2.1 wins per year more than an average player.
The Rays, A’s, Marlins, Indians, Twins, Royals and many others will never be able to afford a Harper in free agency. How can you get around it?
In 2019, the entire Rays team was 11.7 wins above average. That means that they should have won 11.7 more games than an 81-81 team — or about 93 wins. The Rays played well in one-run games and won 96.
How did they get those 11.7 extra wins above average? The Rays had 10 players whom they paid about $7 million in total. A few were good, cheap prospects. Those 10 produced 10.2 wins above average.
Who were these stalwarts? Willy Adames, Ji-Man Choi, Yandy Díaz, Austin Meadows, Tyler Glasnow, Nick Anderson, Yonny Chirinos, Oliver Drake, Emilio Pagán and Ryne Stanek. No, I don’t know many of them, either. The Rays also had several other (0.0) average guys. They helped because avoiding negative players boosts you, too.
It’s tough to win a World Series with 15 or more “average” players on your low-budget roster. But, this October, if the Rays, A’s or Marlins somehow advance, you might want to pull for them. In a way, they are the teams that are truly remarkable.
Steve_424
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There's no way the Indians can reasonably let Santana walk and trade Lindor and not get at least some ML-ready reinforcements
Yeah I agree. There's no way the Indians can say they're trying to contend with a straight face if they're not getting at least some ML-ready talent in an offseason that they'd be seeing Lindor and Santana both exit. I expect they'll target players like Jo Adell, Brandon Marsh, Dylan Carlson, etc who are on ML rosters already but young enough to be pre-arb and under team control for several years.
sportscoach
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The question is which teams want Lindor and what offers are available. We have to take the best available and that may not include an MLB ready guy sadly. I agree with you we should get one so we shall see what deals are out there
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Well, they say their goal is to contend next year so I'm sure they'll be going for a package that includes some major league players. There is a history - the packages they got for Clevinger, Kluber, Bauer, Diaz, and even Erik Gonzalez included major league ready players (Luplow, Clase) or current major leaguers (Reyes, Bauers, Puig, Naylor, Quantrill, Hedges, DeShields).
Gson
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Which teams want Lindor?... pretty simple answer to the question.. all the teams.. or nearly all the teams would be thrilled to have a Francisco Lindor in their every day lineup.. as a lead off guy.. but always as an everyday player... There is value being healthy. It is a skill in high demand in MLB... So.. which teams are more likely to be looking to fill the SS slot or would be interested in filling their SS spot with Lindor while moving whoever is at SS..
About a good number of teams come to mind.. as having either a direct need or close to it.... example.. the braves can't figure out what's with Riley.. if Swanson is moved to 3B.. Lindor at SS.. the braves now have a much more dynamic and deeper lineup... So, Atlanta 'could be' one team.. but, they wouldn't be desperate..
Other teams include, but are not limited to New York Teams.. NL Central reds/cubs/cards amd perhaps the Rangers, Angels and or DBax.. as other examples of teams that would be more likely to have an interest in the services of Lindor.. than just because he's a very, very, good player..
As far as ML or ML-readiness.. Therein lies the rub.. if the guys already playing in the spot that Lindor would be replacing, why did this evaluation by their clubs arrive at being ready?.. what does that say about the guys the Indians would be receiving in return?.. The return is of utmost importance to the Indians..
So, getting back to Atlanta.. who is a better target for the OF need.. Pache or Waters?.. are either of both ML ready?.. The biggest jump in talent is from any place in the minors.. to the ML's... Does anyone else in the Braves MiLB prospect listing sound interesting?. Shea Langeliers? The guy or guys who are returning may not be immediately ready to contribute.. but, they should at least have a chance at being projectable as a player that approaches Lindor's current value, one year and all, at some time in the future..
We already know that whatever is offered isn't going to be enough for the 2021 season..
Thoughts?..
CBBI
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The Indians' definition of contending has a different meaning to me than it does to some of you it appears.
When the Indians say they want to contend next year, I take that as meaning they would like to to have a winning record and be in a position to make the playoffs.
Based on their pitching alone, I believe they're a playoff contender.
It doesn't mean they expect to be a World Series winning contender unless you buy into the whole "once you get in, anything can happen!" mantra. I think the Indians know they don't have the hitting for it and aren't likely to bring in enough hitting in the offseason.
When the Indians say they want to contend next year, I take that as meaning they would like to to have a winning record and be in a position to make the playoffs.
Based on their pitching alone, I believe they're a playoff contender.
It doesn't mean they expect to be a World Series winning contender unless you buy into the whole "once you get in, anything can happen!" mantra. I think the Indians know they don't have the hitting for it and aren't likely to bring in enough hitting in the offseason.
Gson
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Mark Polishuk of MLB Trade Rumors has a weekly chat.. ( https://www.jotcast.com/chat/mlbtr-live-chat-9015.html ) ..this week seemed a bit heavier than usual for Indian questions (deJong for Lindor, Better than Lindor to be traded, Lindor to the Angels if they don't sign an SP/Bauer, etc).. There were two others that piqued some interest:
-Trade an Indians SP to the Cubs for Jason Heyward, but, with a significant amount of his three year $ 65 MM salary payed down by the cubs..
-A Lindor to the Yankees deal starting with Torres plus..
My first impression: Let's do both..
Thoughts?..
-Trade an Indians SP to the Cubs for Jason Heyward, but, with a significant amount of his three year $ 65 MM salary payed down by the cubs..
-A Lindor to the Yankees deal starting with Torres plus..
My first impression: Let's do both..
Thoughts?..
DCTribefan
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I think Carter Kieboom and Victor Robles meet that criteria.
DCTribefan
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Depends on which SP for Heyward. Maybe Civale?
sportscoach
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Heyward is overpaid and overrated. He isnt a very good hitter career wise. We have defensive guys, we need hitters...
CBBI
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Obviously it’s a very small sample size (50 games), but Heyward had a very good season at the plate this year and would have been the second best hitter on the Indians in 2020.
Plus I assume the Cubs would pick up the vast majority of the money.
CDAV45
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This^
CDAV45
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I cannot support those ideas. You're not going to get "plus" if you trade Lindor for Torres. What I believe you can get is Frazier, Andujar, and maybe a reliever for Lindor.
I not opposed to trading either Civale or McKenzie, but it won't come cheap, and my guess is that it would be McKenzie. Who here would swap McKenzie for a legitimate, top end, ready corner OFer? I'm not diminishing his value by allowing a team like the Cubs to pay down on an overly expensive contract. Especially not for Heyward.