Minor League game thread 4/11-4/16

[CDAV45]

You know I am messing with you a bit since how Cleveland normally handles a prospect is B.S to you... lol

...and even you know that Williams isn't a normal prospect. This organization has promoted certain prospects rather quickly with excellent results. There is logic in questioning why promoting Williams to AAA when he's dominated AA hasn't occurred already. It doesn't affect his prospect status or his timeline to FA. If he struggles then they can send him back to AA, but that doesn't seem likely now does it? Especially when you're watching a scrub like Scott.

 

[sportscoach]

4/13 AAA Boxscore



4/14 AAA Boxscore

 

[daddywags]

...and even you know that Williams isn't a normal prospect. This organization has promoted certain prospects rather quickly with excellent results. There is logic in questioning why promoting Williams to AAA when he's dominated AA hasn't occurred already. It doesn't affect his prospect status or his timeline to FA. If he struggles then they can send him back to AA, but that doesn't seem likely now does it? Especially when you're watching a scrub like Scott.

I don't want to get in the middle of a "good" argument (YMMV), but given everything you said here what is your belief, or guess I suppose, as to why he's currently in AA? If we grant that the people who run the organization aren't stupid, then it seems they must have some reason for this decision, no? I know what sportscoach thinks the reason is (whether or not I agree with him) I'm curious what you think about their thinking, if you will.

 

[sportscoach]

...and even you know that Williams isn't a normal prospect. This organization has promoted certain prospects rather quickly with excellent results. There is logic in questioning why promoting Williams to AAA when he's dominated AA hasn't occurred already. It doesn't affect his prospect status or his timeline to FA. If he struggles then they can send him back to AA, but that doesn't seem likely now does it? Especially when you're watching a scrub like Scott.

The have a tendency to not send guys back down if they can help it. Very few guys who got sent back down after having significant time (200-300 ABs/10-15 starts, etc) have really ever gone back up to be something more than organizational fodder. It's not their style and I have a hunch they hate to do so.

And I get why you don't like Scott, but all teams have guys like Scott... The guys who are just there to eat innings. Every single season we have a Scott type at AAA who people feel like are taking innings from someone with more talent. In a simulation game like MLB the Show or OOTP you would never have a guy like that period, but life isn't that way... For better or for worse.

 

[CDAV45]

The have a tendency to not send guys back down if they can help it. Very few guys who got sent back down after having significant time (200-300 ABs/10-15 starts, etc) have really ever gone back up to be something more than organizational fodder. It's not their style and I have a hunch they hate to do so.

And I get why you don't like Scott, but all teams have guys like Scott... The guys who are just there to eat innings. Every single season we have a Scott type at AAA who people feel like are taking innings from someone with more talent. In a simulation game like MLB the Show or OOTP you would never have a guy like that period, but life isn't that way... For better or for worse.

Guys like Scott are needed if you lack the arms. My qualm is the idea that Scott is pitching in AAA while Williams isn't being challenged in AA. Who is more valuable and which one do you want if the need arises? Is it better for the organization if Bo is catching our soon to be rotation members or a guy that probably won't ever see Cleveland as a player? Hey, if you have some information that suggests Williams is better off developmentally with the staff in Akron or something like that then that would be a logical explanation. Saying that he hasn't been promoted just because all the other SP prospects are on a similar time/IP line isn't a logical explanation and should garner some questioning.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

I don't want to get in the middle of a "good" argument (YMMV), but given everything you said here what is your belief, or guess I suppose, as to why he's currently in AA? If we grant that the people who run the organization aren't stupid, then it seems they must have some reason for this decision, no? I know what sportscoach thinks the reason is (whether or not I agree with him) I'm curious what you think about their thinking, if you will.

1. Scott
2. Bibee
3. Pilkington
4. Logan Allen
5. Battenfield

Scott is 27 and reached Columbus in 2021.

The other 4 are just ahead of Williams in terms of age and development. That isn't to say that any of them (sans Bibee) would be more effective than Williams--but Williams can grow more in AA while these guys have been around the block a little more.

If the organization felt it hurt Gavin's development by having him in AA, they'd do something about it--but they don't. We view AA and AAA as the same. In AA, the guys are a bit more talented, but a bit younger. In AAA, the guys are a bit more mature, but often a bit less talented. There isn't a significant difference in the quality of batter Gavin would face between the two levels.

So, seniority rules.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Guys like Scott are needed if you lack the arms. My qualm is the idea that Scott is pitching in AAA while Williams isn't being challenged in AA. Who is more valuable and which one do you want if the need arises? Is it better for the organization if Bo is catching our soon to be rotation members or a guy that probably won't ever see Cleveland as a player? Hey, if you have some information that suggests Williams is better off developmentally with the staff in Akron or something like that then that would be a logical explanation. Saying that he hasn't been promoted just because all the other SP prospects are on a similar time/IP line isn't a logical explanation and should garner some questioning.

I think you're assuming the talent at AAA is significantly better than the talent in AA.

That isn't how our organization views it, and it isn't how I view it either.

 

[Benway]

Good pitching percolates upward more quickly than good hitting does.

 

[sportscoach]

Guys like Scott are needed if you lack the arms. My qualm is the idea that Scott is pitching in AAA while Williams isn't being challenged in AA. Who is more valuable and which one do you want if the need arises? Is it better for the organization if Bo is catching our soon to be rotation members or a guy that probably won't ever see Cleveland as a player? Hey, if you have some information that suggests Williams is better off developmentally with the staff in Akron or something like that then that would be a logical explanation. Saying that he hasn't been promoted just because all the other SP prospects are on a similar time/IP line isn't a logical explanation and should garner some questioning.

I feel like when the organization does, A + B = C and has done it over and over again with success, its hard to go against that logic. Guys like Bibee and Williams though can easily be outliers to that. I feel like they want Williams to get a little more polish at AA. It's one of those, everything looks good, but they want it close to 100% before the promotion. They want a tiny bit better shine before they move him up.

If we didn't have a ton of talent, Williams would definitely be at AAA. They also have been working with Touki, Norris, Kelly etc at AAA. So maybe it's more of they want to work with those guys to make sure they are ready for the marathon?

 

[CDAV45]

I don't want to get in the middle of a "good" argument (YMMV), but given everything you said here what is your belief, or guess I suppose, as to why he's currently in AA? If we grant that the people who run the organization aren't stupid, then it seems they must have some reason for this decision, no? I know what sportscoach thinks the reason is (whether or not I agree with him) I'm curious what you think about their thinking, if you will.

I can't see/find a logical explanation for it honestly. There have been no explanations that I've seen stating why. All I know is that he hasn't been challenged much in almost 80 innings of AA ball. I also know that Scott isn't part of the future rotation unless something goes terribly wrong. I also know that Bo Naylor looks to be the heir apparent C for this organization and that catching our soon to be rotation members makes sense on the surface.

Clearly, there are underlying circumstances other than performance. Maybe there's a certain aspect of William's development that better suits the coaching staff in Akron? Maybe they don't have enough SP in Akron if they promote him? Those are the only 2 things that I can think of.

 

[sportscoach]

1. Scott
2. Bibee
3. Pilkington
4. Logan Allen
5. Battenfield

Scott is 27 and reached Columbus in 2021.

The other 4 are just ahead of Williams in terms of age and development. That isn't to say that any of them (sans Bibee) would be more effective than Williams--but Williams can grow more in AA while these guys have been around the block a little more.

If the organization felt it hurt Gavin's development by having him in AA, they'd do something about it--but they don't. We view AA and AAA as the same. In AA, the guys are a bit more talented, but a bit younger. In AAA, the guys are a bit more mature, but often a bit less talented. There isn't a significant difference in the quality of batter Gavin would face between the two levels.

So, seniority rules.

Also AA is the true test for minor league players. Guys like Kreiger, who was a solid ranked prospect, just never could hit at AA. A guy like Calica retired at that level... if you can succeed at AA, then you deserve a crack at the bigs on paper... Williams will hit the 20ish start mark at AA or above (Aka what I feel Cleveland wants to see for an SP) come May/June so after that, he's pretty much MLB ready as long as he is still dominating in my mind. I don't think we will see him as a starter in 23 in Cleveland since they gotta get Allen's feet wet if he's apart of the future...

 

[CDAV45]

I think you're assuming the talent at AAA is significantly better than the talent in AA.

That isn't how our organization views it, and it isn't how I view it either.

Yeah I don't view it that way either. In fact, that has been a recent conversation that I've had with Sportscoach who thinks that they have to be in AAA a certain amount of time prior to a promotion.

AA is typically where the most talent is even if it is unrefined.

While I agree with what you stated I have to ask why the Bibee promotion? Could have kept him in Akron with the more talented competition. For me Q, it's more about developing our soon to be core together to the extent possible and even though I think this is one of the best ran organizations in professional sports, I think they are too cautious at times.

 

[sportscoach]

Yeah I don't view it that way either. In fact, that has been a recent conversation that I've had with Sportscoach who thinks that they have to be in AAA a certain amount of time prior to a promotion.

AA is typically where the most talent is even if it is unrefined.

While I agree with what you stated I have to ask why the Bibee promotion? Could have kept him in Akron with the more talented competition. For me Q, it's more about developing our soon to be core together to the extent possible and even though I think this is one of the best ran organizations in professional sports, I think they are too cautious at times.

Bibee is way more polished than Williams... also I have said multiple times at AA/AAA not only AAA...

I just feel like Bibee has very little to learn in the minors, but hasn't hit the organizational mark for starters. That Mark in my mind is about 20ish starts at AA or higher... With TMac getting hurt, a AAA spot opened so they sent up the next best pitcher polish wise.

 

[CDAV45]

I feel like when the organization does, A + B = C and has done it over and over again with success, its hard to go against that logic. Guys like Bibee and Williams though can easily be outliers to that. I feel like they want Williams to get a little more polish at AA. It's one of those, everything looks good, but they want it close to 100% before the promotion. They want a tiny bit better shine before they move him up.

If we didn't have a ton of talent, Williams would definitely be at AAA. They also have been working with Touki, Norris, Kelly etc at AAA. So maybe it's more of they want to work with those guys to make sure they are ready for the marathon?

Touki and Kelly are being prepped for BP roles. I don't see the reason for even signing Norris honestly. For a team that propelled themselves into the playoffs last season by promoting young, talented prospects you seem to either be forgetting that or denying it altogether.

Tito has specifically mentioned that most of these kids aren't done with their development upon their promotion so you're 100% theory doesn't hold water.

Have you looked at Williams' numbers in Akron last season and so far this season? How much polish do you want? lol He's not being challenged and from what I can tell those numbers would be even better if he wasn't working on certain things. He's a man amongst boys in AA and that might be the case in AAA as well, but we won't know until he pitches there.

You wouldn't be wrong calling me impatient, but that doesn't mean I'm not right in thinking. I see it as the inevitable and I don't like to hold that off without good reason.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

While I agree with what you stated I have to ask why the Bibee promotion?

Because he's older than Gavin Williams.

(I honestly have no clue, and I don't think it matters. If the front office said "dunno, coin flip" I wouldn't care)