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CDAV45

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I see no correlation between the Browns not being in town and the 455 sellouts. I can see a correlation in the type and quality of ball played in that time frame and now. The relationship between the fans and the organization was healthier at that time as well so...... I'm not saying it's right, wrong or indifferent. Just how I see it, and if you can provide evidence to suggest otherwise then I'm certainly open to changing my view.

I suspect that if this team has a sustained run in the postseason with an offense as exciting as those 90's teams were then you'll see some more sellouts. This team isn't quite there yet, but I think it's coming. I'm extremely hopeful that it's coming.
 

Gson

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I see no correlation between the Browns not being in town and the 455 sellouts. I can see a correlation in the type and quality of ball played in that time frame and now. The relationship between the fans and the organization was healthier at that time as well so...... I'm not saying it's right, wrong or indifferent. Just how I see it, and if you can provide evidence to suggest otherwise then I'm certainly open to changing my view.

I suspect that if this team has a sustained run in the postseason with an offense as exciting as those 90's teams were then you'll see some more sellouts. This team isn't quite there yet, but I think it's coming. I'm extremely hopeful that it's coming.
There is a correlation...

The Browns were gone..
The Cavs were non-existent and poorly run..
Discretionary spending was at a high level..
Jacobs Field was opening.... a brand spanking new/park..

This confluence of events... led to the public having a single choice for their burgeoning spending.. Being at Jacob Field was an event.. oh.. the team played well..

Suspect this.. believe that.. but as long as there are choices where north east Ohioans can spend their entertainment dollars... baseball in cleveland will be third.. happily third with a chance for second..
 

CDAV45

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There is a correlation...

The Browns were gone..
The Cavs were non-existent and poorly run..
Discretionary spending was at a high level..
Jacobs Field was opening.... a brand spanking new/park..

This confluence of events... led to the public having a single choice for their burgeoning spending.. Being at Jacob Field was an event.. oh.. the team played well..

Suspect this.. believe that.. but as long as there are choices where north east Ohioans can spend their entertainment dollars... baseball in cleveland will be third.. happily third with a chance for second..
All you've done is stated what happened, but with no reasoning or correlation other than timeline. I'm not even saying you're wrong. What I am saying is that simply stating that the "Browns were gone" and the "Cavs were non-existent and poorly run" prove nothing. Jacob's Field opening isn't a very good argument IMO either. Would there have been 455 consecutive sellouts had the team sucked even though it was "a brand spanking new/park.."? I doubt it.

I think there were 455 consecutive sellouts due to the fact that the then Indians were an exceptionally exciting team to watch along with other factors. Some of which may be in part to your reasons, but I don't know for certain. I don't believe for one second that the attendance would have been any different at that time had the Browns been in town or the Cavs were in the middle of a dynasty.
 

southernflyer

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All you've done is stated what happened, but with no reasoning or correlation other than timeline. I'm not even saying you're wrong. What I am saying is that simply stating that the "Browns were gone" and the "Cavs were non-existent and poorly run" prove nothing. Jacob's Field opening isn't a very good argument IMO either. Would there have been 455 consecutive sellouts had the team sucked even though it was "a brand spanking new/park.."? I doubt it.

I think there were 455 consecutive sellouts due to the fact that the then Indians were an exceptionally exciting team to watch along with other factors. Some of which may be in part to your reasons, but I don't know for certain. I don't believe for one second that the attendance would have been any different at that time had the Browns been in town or the Cavs were in the middle of a dynasty.
Corporate money was a factor. With the Browns gone and Cavs sucking, corporate dollars went to the Tribe. When I worked downtown in '99, the company I contracted with had between 4-8 season tickets per department. I was able to grab two or four tickets to mid week games quite often that weren't being used on clients. If I remember correctly they had a luxury box and the equivalent of three rows of lower box seats. Once the Browns came back, they cut that down between Tribe and Browns and again divided between all three teams when LeBron was drafted.

During that run, being at the game was the "it" thing. Young people in seats around me would casually come in the second or third inning, have a couple of drinks and leave by the seventh. If I didn't stand in line for the Stop and Shop tickemaster or team shop locations near me, I used our office's 12 line phone system to dial to get tickets when they went on sale every fall.
 

Out of the Rafters at the Q

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You guys are trying to argue about causation. There's no arguing about correlation. When the Browns were gone, attendance went up.
 
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Gson

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All you've done is stated what happened, but with no reasoning or correlation other than timeline. I'm not even saying you're wrong. What I am saying is that simply stating that the "Browns were gone" and the "Cavs were non-existent and poorly run" prove nothing. Jacob's Field opening isn't a very good argument IMO either. Would there have been 455 consecutive sellouts had the team sucked even though it was "a brand spanking new/park.."? I doubt it.

I think there were 455 consecutive sellouts due to the fact that the then Indians were an exceptionally exciting team to watch along with other factors. Some of which may be in part to your reasons, but I don't know for certain. I don't believe for one second that the attendance would have been any different at that time had the Browns been in town or the Cavs were in the middle of a dynasty.
If you have money to spend (and spend people do), then the choices were limited to the Indians..

If you can't see that.. you don't want to.. it is self evident..
 

CDAV45

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If you have money to spend (and spend people do), then the choices were limited to the Indians..

If you can't see that.. you don't want to.. it is self evident..
So you have evidence that the good folks of Cleveland looked at their monies and literally asked themselves which sporting event they could afford to attend? Sorry, not buying it. At least not in the entirety that you suggest. The only thing "self evident" to me is that you have no proof of what you're suggesting. While I'm sure that there were a few that could be attributed to, I don't see the large number of people who stopped attending games being in that category. The loss of corporate participation/purchasing probably had a hand in it as well as someone else suggested. I'll look into it a bit further later tonight.
 

CDAV45

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You guys are trying to argue about causation. There's no arguing about correlation. When the Browns were gone, attendance went up.
Kind of my point actually. While the causation is in question, the correlation isn't.
 

Gson

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So you have evidence that the good folks of Cleveland looked at their monies and literally asked themselves which sporting event they could afford to attend? Sorry, not buying it. At least not in the entirety that you suggest. The only thing "self evident" to me is that you have no proof of what you're suggesting. While I'm sure that there were a few that could be attributed to, I don't see the large number of people who stopped attending games being in that category. The loss of corporate participation/purchasing probably had a hand in it as well as someone else suggested. I'll look into it a bit further later tonight.
Funny how little you have to say in direct contradiction.. :

EVIDENCE..

Attendance, by your own words, changed from a few measly thousand per game to over 40K per game

Unit cost per ticket rose by near hald.. MORE EVIDENCE.

LOGE sales went through the roof.. all 104 of them with a waiting list MORE EVIDENCE..

The Clippers (basketball) were a joke.. bottom feeders just like the CAVS MORE EVIDENCE

The FOOTBALL TEAM left town.. MORE EVIDENCE.

If you don't want to see EVIDENCE.. then you won't..
 

Out of the Rafters at the Q

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Kind of my point actually. While the causation is in question, the correlation isn't.
?
I see no correlation between the Browns not being in town and the 455 sellouts. I can see a correlation in the type and quality of ball played in that time frame and now. The relationship between the fans and the organization was healthier at that time as well so...... I'm not saying it's right, wrong or indifferent. Just how I see it, and if you can provide evidence to suggest otherwise then I'm certainly open to changing my view.

I suspect that if this team has a sustained run in the postseason with an offense as exciting as those 90's teams were then you'll see some more sellouts. This team isn't quite there yet, but I think it's coming. I'm extremely hopeful that it's coming.
That's objectively wrong.

I think you want to talk about causation, which is an interesting discussion.
 

CDAV45

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Funny how little you have to say in direct contradiction.. :

EVIDENCE..

Attendance, by your own words, changed from a few measly thousand per game to over 40K per game

Unit cost per ticket rose by near hald.. MORE EVIDENCE.

LOGE sales went through the roof.. all 104 of them with a waiting list MORE EVIDENCE..

The Clippers (basketball) were a joke.. bottom feeders just like the CAVS MORE EVIDENCE

The FOOTBALL TEAM left town.. MORE EVIDENCE.

If you don't want to see EVIDENCE.. then you won't..
I want to see evidence so you can take your snide comments and shove them up your ass. You're simply providing ideas why you think attendance declined and there are many more ideas that can be presented as well. It's odd that the sellouts continued 2 fucking years after the Browns came back to town. It's also odd that the sellout streak began in June of 95 and the Browns didn't leave until July of 96.
 

sportscoach

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I want to see evidence so you can take your snide comments and shove them up your ass. You're simply providing ideas why you think attendance declined and there are many more ideas that can be presented as well. It's odd that the sellouts continued 2 fucking years after the Browns came back to town. It's also odd that the sellout streak began in June of 95 and the Browns didn't leave until July of 96.

Browns were kind of a joke in their last years and when they started back up, not gonna lie...

We are also forgetting to factor in, a lot of businesses left north eastern Ohio as well, so it goes like this...

Factor one, Indians stopped being the only legit team in town...

Factor two, lots of jobs left northeastern ohio

Factor three, baseball in general took a hit from the steroid scandal. Ratings and whatnot have been down for awhile...

Factor four, inflation plus baseball not capping salaries caused ticket prices to increase a fair amount.

Factor five, the players from the 90s leaving to get more money elsewhere destroying Dolans rep as an owner and getting his cheapskate reputation....

If you take all those factors in... I think you can see why attendance has dropped. I know when businesses left northeastern ohio, small community colleges took off since people were trying to find new jobs and new careers. Living wage in Ohio luckily isn't super bad, but it still hurt how often people hit the games
 

CDAV45

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Browns were kind of a joke in their last years and when they started back up, not gonna lie...

We are also forgetting to factor in, a lot of businesses left north eastern Ohio as well, so it goes like this...

Factor one, Indians stopped being the only legit team in town...

Factor two, lots of jobs left northeastern ohio

Factor three, baseball in general took a hit from the steroid scandal. Ratings and whatnot have been down for awhile...

Factor four, inflation plus baseball not capping salaries caused ticket prices to increase a fair amount.

Factor five, the players from the 90s leaving to get more money elsewhere destroying Dolans rep as an owner and getting his cheapskate reputation....

If you take all those factors in... I think you can see why attendance has dropped. I know when businesses left northeastern ohio, small community colleges took off since people were trying to find new jobs and new careers. Living wage in Ohio luckily isn't super bad, but it still hurt how often people hit the games
Coach, the Browns have been a joke for decades and still are really.

While I don't have data to support the idea, businesses leaving seems logical.

Baseball in general taking a hit seems a bit off to me. Too many full stadiums outside of Cleveland to believe that.

Exiting the 90's era and not having those exciting teams year in and year out seems very logical to me as well, but again I don't have that data to back it.

Dolan's reputation could be a source of distaste for many fans. I find it ridiculous, but it's likely partly to blame.

Bottom line, until I see actual numbers/polls that show the decline in attendance at Progressive field is due to other professional sports I just don't buy that they are factors. I can't even begin to count how many Browns fans I know, but none of them miss a Guardians' game because they're Browns fans. They simply haven't seen the entertainment value in the Indians/Guardians over the last 15+ yrs. I have never heard one of them weighing one against the other. I think part of that is due to being spoiled by the 90's teams' offenses. They were exciting and talented. They bludgeoned teams with their offense and athleticism. If my suspicions are correct, I think they are going to find it difficult to regain that level of fan dedication until they have one of the league's more powerful offenses. They'll need to win consistently as well. I'm not suggesting we'll ever see 455 again, but a significant and more consistent increase in attendance might be the result of doing so.

Whatever the reasons, I hope they fade/improve and this organization gets what it deserves which is large crowds at every home game.

How are you feeling by the way?
 
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CDAV45

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?

That's objectively wrong.

I think you want to talk about causation, which is an interesting discussion.
I feel like I'm not being clear so I apologize. Yes, I want to talk about causation, but there are some questions about the "correlation" timeline. There is no question that when the Browns returned it wasn't long thereafter that attendance dropped, but there are also other factors which I feel would have possibly reduced the attendance regardless of the Browns returning.
 

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