Pitching

[jup]

So Karinchak uses pine tar which is not nearly the grip enhancers that Spider Tack is. But tonight they took away his pine tar because he was doing the sunscreen/rosin thing on his forearm (shimmering) and patting his fingers on it. And going from something like Pelican Grip Dip (which is probably what he was using) to sunscreen, a 250 rpm drop in spin rate is just about right.

"And then there’s James Karinchak, who must be sweating Spider Tack through his pores. The average rotation of his fastball dropped from 2450 rpm on the season to 2193 rpm tonight — a 257 rpm difference. His curveball similarly dropped from 2412 on the year to 2201 — a 211 rpm difference. Come on, James. Make an effort to hide it, man. Ball verdict: Ultra Sticky."

That drops his spin rate to league average (about 2250) from way above average at 2450. He will get hit at that spin rate as time goes on.

But the guy doesn't have a brain in his head. He didn't learn a damn thing about being obvious from the whole pine tar in the glove thing. He was out there on the mound patting his finger tips on his forearm like he was playing the piano.

 

[DCTribefan]

How MLB can avoid unintended consequences of sticky ban

Major League Baseball’s era of sticky-substance enforcement begins Monday with Game 1 of the Braves-Mets doubleheader at Citi Field.

nypost.com

 

[Obscured By Clouds]

So this is pretty interesting. Pedro on MLB Network discussing just rosin itself, and demonstrates that rosin alone makes your fingers sticky. Rosin is of course legal, they put the damn bag on the mound for a pitcher to help dry off his hands.

One of Bauer's points about the new enforcement of this, is the fact that Umps are judge, jury and executioner. If an Ump checks a players fingers, and they are like Pedro's that he shows, then I can see a lot of pitchers getting booted with 10 game bans simply for using rosin alone.

 

[Criznit]

So Karinchak uses pine tar which is not nearly the grip enhancers that Spider Tack is. But tonight they took away his pine tar because he was doing the sunscreen/rosin thing on his forearm (shimmering) and patting his fingers on it. And going from something like Pelican Grip Dip (which is probably what he was using) to sunscreen, a 250 rpm drop in spin rate is just about right.

"And then there’s James Karinchak, who must be sweating Spider Tack through his pores. The average rotation of his fastball dropped from 2450 rpm on the season to 2193 rpm tonight — a 257 rpm difference. His curveball similarly dropped from 2412 on the year to 2201 — a 211 rpm difference. Come on, James. Make an effort to hide it, man. Ball verdict: Ultra Sticky."

That drops his spin rate to league average (about 2250) from way above average at 2450. He will get hit at that spin rate as time goes on.

But the guy doesn't have a brain in his head. He didn't learn a damn thing about being obvious from the whole pine tar in the glove thing. He was out there on the mound patting his finger tips on his forearm like he was playing the piano.

I mean Karinchaks use of something sticky was beyond obvious, maybe not quite the big globs of whatever on your arm/neck like Pineda..

He'll still be effective. But a lot more wild. He certainly looked like he was getting something rubbed..

Has anyone here actually seen/used this spider tack stuff?

 

[jup]

I mean Karinchaks use of something sticky was beyond obvious, maybe not quite the big globs of whatever on your arm/neck like Pineda..

He'll still be effective. But a lot more wild. He certainly looked like he was getting something rubbed..

Has anyone here actually seen/used this spider tack stuff?

Yes.

I have gotten the white dots stuck to my fingers from it ripping the leather off the ball. It is really pretty cool

But Karinachak was a Pelican grip dip guy not Spider Tack

 

[Lee]

We have no healthy pitching, this thread should be closed until we have some pitchers

 

[jup]

For those that may wonder if you can see spin rate changes based upon "sticky stuff"

With relievers it is a little harder to get clean averages, because they throw so few pitches per outing, the overall average for that outing can be dominated by a few pitches either on the high side or low. The infamous small ample size on this board. So his spin rates are kind of all over the place so exact numbers are hard to say, but he is going to be down at least 275 rpm when he finally settles on what he can and can't do.

Definite difference from the Pelican grip dip to sunscreen and rosin. And if he has to go all the way to just rosin and sweat, probably looking at another 150 rpm drop.

 

[jup]

We have no healthy pitching, this thread should be closed until we have some pitchers

And yes LL3, the "little pitching factory" has hit a little rough patch.

Seems production of top flight pitchers hasn't quite matched the injury rate. But for what they have had to work through and with, I think they have done Yeoman's work so far. Real easy to think they have the magic pixie dust with the string of pitchers they have had in recent years. But a lot of that is the pitchers themselves. And to think that you can just spit out pitchers like Big Macs at McDonalds is fools gold

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

For those that may wonder if you can see spin rate changes based upon "sticky stuff"

With relievers it is a little harder to get clean averages, because they throw so few pitches per outing, the overall average for that outing can be dominated by a few pitches either on the high side or low. The infamous small ample size on this board. So his spin rates are kind of all over the place so exact numbers are hard to say, but he is going to be down at least 275 rpm when he finally settles on what he can and can't do.

Definite difference from the Pelican grip dip to sunscreen and rosin. And if he has to go all the way to just rosin and sweat, probably looking at another 150 rpm drop.

Yesterday Reynolds took Karinchak into the river on a 98 mph fastball right down the middle. Obviously the sticky stuff doesn't affect velocity. Do you think the loss of 220 revs in spin rate made the difference on that pitch? IOW, if he was spining 2400+ with the same velo would that pitch still have ended up in the river or would the increased spin have caused the ball to rise a fraction of an inch resulting in a fly out?

 

[jup]

Yesterday Reynolds took Karinchak into the river on a 98 mph fastball right down the middle. Obviously the sticky stuff doesn't affect velocity. Do you think the loss of 220 revs in spin rate made the difference on that pitch? IOW, if he was spining 2400+ with the same velo would that pitch still have ended up in the river or would the increased spin have caused the ball to rise a fraction of an inch resulting in a fly out?

Bingo !!!

It keeps balls off the barrel so hitters don't square them up quite as well. And an eighth of an inch is like the difference between "in the river" and fly out to the track.

It all has to do with what hitters are used to seeing. Because there is NO WAY you track a 98 mph pitch all the way to the bat. The human body just isn't designed to do that. So the last say 6' of travel of the ball, the hitter really doesn't even see the ball. They are just working off a grooving of a swing as to where that ball ends up at the point of contact. So an 1/8 of an inch difference in where they get the barrel to can be like night and day. And in Karinchak's case, his swing and miss rates will drop, because his velo and spin rates are high enough to get complete miss let alone an 1/8".

Less swing and miss may not seem like a big deal, but it can be very significant over an entire season when you consider the load of foul balls to his total number of pitches thrown and some of the bloop hits that invariable come along beside them.

 

[Lee]

And yes LL3, the "little pitching factory" has hit a little rough patch.

Seems production of top flight pitchers hasn't quite matched the injury rate. But for what they have had to work through and with, I think they have done Yeoman's work so far. Real easy to think they have the magic pixie dust with the string of pitchers they have had in recent years. But a lot of that is the pitchers themselves. And to think that you can just spit out pitchers like Big Macs at McDonalds is fools gold

I dont know pitchers like you do, but it just seems its not that the factory is broken, its just that we have been forced to use 75% undercooked pitchers who arent ready for major league hitting yet. Its like asking a really smart 6th grade kid to take a 12th grade test without preparing and asking why he failed.

Not many teams who are reloading their roster and have as many injuries as we do stay competitive. Its been a fun season for me with my expectations low yet seeing so many young players competing.

 

[daddywags]

I dont know pitchers like you do, but it just seems its not that the factory is broken, its just that we have been forced to use 75% undercooked pitchers who arent ready for major league hitting yet. Its like asking a really smart 6th grade kid to take a 12th grade test without preparing and asking why he failed.

Not many teams who are reloading their roster and have as many injuries as we do stay competitive. Its been a fun season for me with my expectations low yet seeing so many young players competing.

Have to factor in the complete loss of a year of normal training for most minor league players as well. Teams that rely heavily on a "pipeline" of young players moving through their training system had a massive glitch happen last year the likes of which hasn't happened before in most of our lifetimes. A guy like Mejia, for instance, ended 2019 in A+ ball. In a normal progression he would likely have pitched in A+ and AA last season and have gotten instruction and experience he doesn't have now. It has to have affected what we're seeing from him now. I think last year hurt low and mid-market teams more than others because of the necessity of having that ready "pipeline."

 

[Benway]

I don't think I've ever seen this much change (with significant turnover yet to come) on a legitimately competitive team before.

 

[CATS44]

It looks to me as if the pitching factory is doing just fine, and we will see it soon enough.

A factory with a reputation for good finished products begins with good raw materials, and this org...either thru draft, international signings, or trades...always has a plentiful stock of good raw material on hand.

The problem isn't that the way this org acquires and develops pitchers has suddenly stopped working. The problem is that demand has suddenly outpaced the supply of available MLB ready arms at the same time that development was put on hold.

Having had two careers, one in HVAC sales, and one in manufacturing, I have seen this happen several times.

One instance in particular illustrates the situation the Tribe is facing.

In the late 70s I worked for one of the largest residential HVAC companies in the midwest...one of the very few with a superior reputation for heat pumps. At the time there were only two heat pump manufacturers with a quality product. Several others had been working on development, but backed off because of lack of demand in the northern US.

At just that point, a moratorium was put on the building of new homes with natural gas.

BOOM

Once our supply of quality heat pumps was quickly gone, I spent much of my time begging, borrowing, and... in one instance...semi stealing heat pumps from anywhere I could find them, even as far away as Virginia. Many of these were in development stages, not yet at the quality level we, or our customers expected.

We had to babysit a lot of them for months, and in a few cases, years, to make them right.

Did my company suddenly become poor at our job? Nope. We did the best we could do with the situation we had, and once the gas moratorium was over, things returned to normal.

The Covid moratorium on development is over. The pitching factory is still running, but the schedule is a little behind.

 

[DCTribefan]

It looks to me as if the pitching factory is doing just fine, and we will see it soon enough.

A factory with a reputation for good finished products begins with good raw materials, and this org...either thru draft, international signings, or trades...always has a plentiful stock of good raw material on hand.

The problem isn't that the way this org acquires and develops pitchers has suddenly stopped working. The problem is that demand has suddenly outpaced the supply of available MLB ready arms at the same time that development was put on hold.

Having had two careers, one in HVAC sales, and one in manufacturing, I have seen this happen several times.

One instance in particular illustrates the situation the Tribe is facing.

In the late 70s I worked for one of the largest residential HVAC companies in the midwest...one of the very few with a superior reputation for heat pumps. At the time there were only two heat pump manufacturers with a quality product. Several others had been working on development, but backed off because of lack of demand in the northern US.

At just that point, a moratorium was put on the building of new homes with natural gas.

BOOM

Once our supply of quality heat pumps was quickly gone, I spent much of my time begging, borrowing, and... in one instance...semi stealing heat pumps from anywhere I could find them, even as far away as Virginia. Many of these were in development stages, not yet at the quality level we, or our customers expected.

We had to babysit a lot of them for months, and in a few cases, years, to make them right.

Did my company suddenly become poor at our job? Nope. We did the best we could do with the situation we had, and once the gas moratorium was over, things returned to normal.

The Covid moratorium on development is over. The pitching factory is still running, but the schedule is a little behind.

Fun story and analogy Cats. I think any company that ODMs products faces similar challenges. And make no mistake, MLB is a business (based on a game).