• Changing RCF's index page, please click on "Forums" to access the forums.

Pitching

Do Not Sell My Personal Information
So there is this Meisel article over on the Athletic today about Civale, but more so the ever present Ruben (Niebla) in the background. Ruben is the unsung hero (IMO) in Cleveland's current success in the pitching development area.


Rueben has always been eager to learn, smart enough to understand the value of listening, of thinking through what he is told, then looking for and at practical application of what others have brought to the org. It has allowed him to acquire a really really good skill set over the years. When others in the org didn't listen Rueben was.

Rueben is the guy, behind the scenes, that has the knowledge and ability to turn water into wine when it comes to producing pitchers.

The particular excerpt that indirectly talks about Rueben for those that don't have a subscription

The overhaul

Assistant pitching coach Ruben Niebla called Civale last October to debrief after the 2020 season. He knew Civale harbored frustrations about how his year unfolded. Civale deemed it a sophomore slump, with periods of lackluster pitch execution, and he vowed to “learn from mistakes, failures and losses.”

All season, Niebla had tracked Civale’s ball flight. He examined how Civale could cut and sink the baseball but had a “tough time squaring up the hand behind the ball with success.” Civale demonstrated he could throw an effective curveball, which blossomed into his best swing-and-miss pitch. Niebla thought he needed a complement to that offering, something traveling in the opposite direction: a four-seam fastball.

Niebla was thinking in grander terms than just the implementation of another pitch, though. He had an idea that would require a significant undertaking, one that could enhance the timing of Civale’s delivery, keep his arm in sync with his lower half and benefit him health-wise.

Before Niebla even finished his sales pitch, Civale jumped on board. Niebla was his pitching coordinator when the Indians drafted him in the third round in 2016. They’ve worked together throughout Civale’s five years in the organization. Civale trusted him.

They were going to reconstruct Civale’s throwing motion, creating a shorter arm action that would demand he relearn how to throw all of his pitches. Starting from scratch on a new project? That’s Civale’s dream.

Niebla didn’t sugarcoat his message. This would be an involved, painstaking process. There would be daunting moments when Civale would feel lost and resort to second-guessing. They engaged in regular dialogue from opposite coasts, Civale submitting video from his training sessions in Massachusetts and Niebla providing feedback from his Southern California home. Niebla believed the transformation could work because Civale had a firm understanding of his body, his strengths and his delivery limitations.

“Arm action changes aren’t for everyone,” Niebla said. “It has to be a special person.”

The intention was to place Civale in a more efficient position when releasing the baseball. Niebla said when Civale reached back at the peak of his motion last season, as he planted his front foot, his torso would “arch out” and his arm tended to veer toward the first-base dugout. With the new delivery, he has less time to surrender to undesired movements — and he’s essentially pitching from the stretch.

“The delivery is all about timing,” Niebla said. “It’s about being in strong positions while gathering ground forces through the backside first and eventually through the front side. If you find yourself in these positions that are efficient, that are stronger, it should lead to not only a healthier arm action, but it also should lead to better angular force, which is basically a force of rotation of the body. In other words, the kinetic chain.”

That results in better action on the four-seam fastball and curveball, and they figured they could rebuild his arsenal around that combination. Civale tossed only a football for the first week of the offseason so he could practice the arm action and grasp how different it felt.


****************************************

Hats off to Rueben, a self made guy who has paid his dues.
 
Last edited:
A quick little informal survey of a few guys around the league tells me some guys got the memo, some did not OR some are just real resistant to change OR some just think they will not get checked or caught. See what you think

WWIpZ3m.png
 
So Karinchak was a little shaky but effective enough last night. Since he has now pitched post "sticky day" (sday for short), thought I would look and see what we might have going forward.

25M7TcN.png


Looks like he is about where he was the two outing before sday and will stabilize about 270 rpm off his pre-sday highs. Now we will just have to wait and watch to see how effective he will be.
 
So Karinchak was a little shaky but effective enough last night. Since he has now pitched post "sticky day" (sday for short), thought I would look and see what we might have going forward.

25M7TcN.png


Looks like he is about where he was the two outing before sday and will stabilize about 270 rpm off his pre-sday highs. Now we will just have to wait and watch to see how effective he will be.
To my novice eye, his curve was visibly different. It looked closer to Bauer's (which is still one of the best 12-6 curves in the game) than it did to Karinchak's absolute sticky-icky hammer he's been throwing.
 
Darvish made his first post sday start last night so I was looking at his spin rates also.

He is kind of an interesting study in enforcement. Noticed how his early season spin rates and post sday ones kind of looked alike. Probably started out at sunscreen and rosin playing it safe while watching what was going to happen. Then back to business as normal with stickier stuff like Pelican (synthetic pin tar). Then probably to nothing but rosin as it was clear that the hammer was going to come down :conf (11):

Such fun, a real time experiment happening right before our eyes. Bet the commissioner's "enforcement" department is as happy as NASA after a successful blast off, right now.

HWfnN1d.png
 
Last edited:
To my novice eye, his curve was visibly different. It looked closer to Bauer's (which is still one of the best 12-6 curves in the game) than it did to Karinchak's absolute sticky-icky hammer he's been throwing.
The break is just different with and without.

CBs are one of the most revealing pitches when it comes to mechanisms for delivery (not the pitchers delivery, but how the ball actually leaves the hand). Where sticky stuff is important on a CB is on your thumb not your fingers. That is why you would see Karinchak go to his glove so much with his thumb. The thumb controls when the ball slips on a CB and that is what is important. So many times I would watch how and when he was going to his glove and could almost pick his CB by that alone.
 
Darvish made his first post sday start last night so I was looking at his spin rates also.

He is kind of an interesting study in enforcement. Noticed how his early season spin rates and post sday ones kind of looked alike. Probably started out at sunscreen and rosin playing it safe while watching what was going to happen. Then back to business as normal with stickier stuff like Pelican (synthetic pin tar). Then probably to nothing but rosin as it was clear that the hammer was going to come down :conf (11):

Such fun, a real time experiment happening right before our eyes. Bet the commissioner's "enforcement" department is as happy as NASA after a successful blast off, right now.

HWfnN1d.png
...as long as the number of successful take offs = the number of successful landings... all is good..
 
  • Like
Reactions: jup
Karinchak was lights out in April (no earned runs in 10.2 innings with 22 K's and only 2 walks). But his May ERA was 4.15 and so far in June it's 4.00. I'm concerned about the 17 walks in 22 innings in May/June, including walking 5 of the last 13 batters he's faced.
 
Walks will always been an issue with Karinchak. April always seems flukey with the low walks
No walks for JK last night but all four batters he faced put the ball in play. Usually he gets a couple of K's. I wonder if we will see a somewhat different pitcher now that the stick is out of the picture.
 
Zach Meisel has a column on Quantrill in The Athletic.

Quantrill ranks in the 94th percentile in the majors in opponent hard-hit rate. His sinker-slider-changeup combination induces weak contact at nearly three times the league average rate. Since shifting into the rotation, he has mixed in an occasional curveball as well.

In his last two starts, Quantrill has limited opponents to one run on six hits and two walks over nine innings.

“The mindset thing, that’s been the biggest noticeable change I’ve seen from him,” said reliever Phil Maton, who also played with Quantrill in San Diego, “especially coming from the Padres to here. He doesn’t make a big deal about the start day. He just goes out there and competes — and looks like he’s pissed off the entire time he’s pitching, too.

“The results speak for themselves.”


The change in mindset has to do with following Carlos Carrasco's example of breaking the game into one-inning chunks and just focusing on getting three outs as if he were a relief pitcher rather than put pressure on himself to pitch a certain number of innings.

...he’s still tackling his appearances in three-out chunks, following a recent conversation with Civale about breaking each game into bits and pieces.

“Essentially, it’s one inning at a time,” catcher Austin Hedges said. “If I’m going out here and starting this game, I need to get a zero this inning and if they say, ‘Go back out there,’ OK, I’ll go get a zero that inning. If they say, ‘Go get another one,’ I’ll go get another one. It’s basically, ‘I’m going to keep going and get one zero at a time until they say my day is done.
’”

[Quantrill] said earlier in his career, he placed unnecessary pressure on himself when he started, fixating on the fact it might be his only chance to contribute that week. In his career, Quantrill has a 5.18 ERA as a starter and a 1.91 ERA as a reliever.

Carlos Carrasco took a similar approach when he transitioned back into the rotation after a three-month stint in the bullpen in 2014. He continued to throw out of the stretch and warm up like a reliever. The rest of that season, Carrasco posted a 1.30 ERA in 10 starts. His career took off from there.


Hopefully Quantrill's career will also take off with the new mindset of one inning at a time.
 
I have been a non-fan of Quantrill as a starter since well forever. BUT. I see/read things like this and have to say, atta boy keep it up and make me eat my words.

This is the most promising news I have ingested since the start of Cal's Cleveland career.
 
I have been a non-fan of Quantrill as a starter since well forever. BUT. I see/read things like this and have to say, atta boy keep it up and make me eat my words.

This is the most promising news I have ingested since the start of Cal's Cleveland career.
And then he gets lit up by the Twins. Oh, well, looks like he'll be in the rotation for a while so at least we'll have a bigger sample size.
 

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Video

Episode 3-15: "Cavs Survive and Advance"

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Spotify

Episode 3:15: Cavs Survive and Advance
Top