Starting lineups - who in the 2 hole

[CDAV45]

We’ve been discussing who should bat in the 2 hole, but what is the ideal 2 hole hitter? I’m not sure the traditional line of thought applies any longer. I think we’re ideally looking for someone with good bat to ball skills obviously, but a good line drive rate and low ground ball rate are ideal too……right? Having the ability to take a walk and move the lead off hitter to 2B seems like a positive. Without looking at all the numbers, Tyler Freeman is probably the best fit for the job that we currently have or until Rocchio is ready.

The problem with Freeman for me is the total absence of any power. This is why I like the idea of Rocchio or getting someone like Rengifo.

 

[Benway]

Ideal 2-hole hitter? We've got one in Kwan.
High OBP, lefty to screen out the C, works the count, speed on the bases.

 

[sportscoach]

Complete and utter BS, but you do you.

Again, you don’t know what has or hasn’t been offered so discussing it is a moot point.

I’m glad that he had over 4 bWAR. Hopefully someone pays for that mirage. I suspect they will at some point as $10M for an average bat/below average defensive SS isn’t something Cleveland typically does.

I see you couldn’t answer the question.

Every circumstance is different... We traded EE and got back Santana... Made more sense to have him back over EE...

We kept Chisenhall til his contract ended I believe. Most of the main nucleus guys we sign to extensions with opt outs. So it's rare we keep someone to finish their first 6 years if they don't sign an extension.

We also came into the off season with Rosario and JRam as our two most experienced position players with Rosario taking a leadership role and still under team control... He took a big step forward in 22 and honestly, why trade a guy with a leadership role if we don't get back what we want for him? This is when just being a ball player wins out over analytics.

 

[KluberSociety]

The ideal 2 hole hitter has been Jose Ramirez and still is, even more so with the addition of Bell.

He makes good contact, has pretty good discipline, can run bases, isn't GIDP prone, and his PAs are less likely to be wasted with 2 outs and nobody on (as they are out of the 3 hole).

Of course this is all hypothetical because we know it's going to be Amed in the 2 hole and Jose in the 3 hole and even if Amed gets traded, Jose is going to bat in the 3 hole because that's what he's done for so long.

Kwan
Jose
Amed (vs LHP) / Naylor (vs RHP)
Bell
Gimenez
OGonz
Amed (vs RHP) / Freeman-Arias (vs. LHP)
Catcher
Straw

There's your lineup. It makes too much sense... Maybe OGonz is down too low but I can actually see him much higher vs lefties. Kwan might not really be a good lefty hitter.

 

[sportscoach]

The ideal 2 hole hitter has been Jose Ramirez and still is, even more so with the addition of Bell.

He makes good contact, has pretty good discipline, can run bases, isn't GIDP prone, and his PAs are less likely to be wasted with 2 outs and nobody on (as they are out of the 3 hole).

Of course this is all hypothetical because we know it's going to be Amed in the 2 hole and Jose in the 3 hole and even if Amed gets traded, Jose is going to bat in the 3 hole because that's what he's done for so long.

Kwan
Jose
Amed (vs LHP) / Naylor (vs RHP)
Bell
Gimenez
OGonz
Amed (vs RHP) / Freeman-Arias (vs. LHP)
Catcher
Straw

There's your lineup. It makes too much sense... Maybe OGonz is down too low but I can actually see him much higher vs lefties. Kwan might not really be a good lefty hitter.

Amed isn't going in the 3 hole against anyone lol

 

[CDAV45]

Every circumstance is different... We traded EE and got back Santana... Made more sense to have him back over EE...

We kept Chisenhall til his contract ended I believe. Most of the main nucleus guys we sign to extensions with opt outs. So it's rare we keep someone to finish their first 6 years if they don't sign an extension.

We also came into the off season with Rosario and JRam as our two most experienced position players with Rosario taking a leadership role and still under team control... He took a big step forward in 22 and honestly, why trade a guy with a leadership role if we don't get back what we want for him? This is when just being a ball player wins out over analytics.

Chisenhall was done due to injuries and hasn't played since he had 84 AB with Cleveland in 2018.

I'm not even going to address some BS leadership role theory.

 

[sportscoach]

Chisenhall was done due to injuries and hasn't played since he had 84 AB with Cleveland in 2018.

I'm not even going to address some BS leadership role theory.

You don't believe in leadership then?

 

[rcristal]

In 2022 JRam had more RBIs than in any year of his career, in spite of being intentionally walked more often than he ever had before.

He had the most opportunities to come to the plate with RISP and to come to the plate with runners on.

It ain't broke, and having Gimenez bat lower stretches our lineup.

BINGO
Rcristal

 

[rcristal]

What was the last expensive FA that they let walk after their contract was up? You can't use Brantley because he was injured the 2 prior seasons and had no value.

Maybe Amed sticks around all season, but that would be a mistake and he shouldn't be part of the conversation now.

You are absolutely correct, he should not be part of the conversation. He should be extended and he should be our shortstop for a long time.
Rcristal

 

[CDAV45]

You are absolutely correct, he should not be part of the conversation. He should be extended and he should be our shortstop for a long time.
Rcristal

Get outta here with that silly shit. He should not be our SS past 23 if he's even our SS then. Might as well get used to the idea that Amed is not a longterm answer at SS for anyone bud.
CDAV45

 

[CDAV45]

You don't believe in leadership then?

Sure do and there's plenty. I don't know why you have such a difficult time comprehending that, but I don't really care to be honest.

I believe in culture more than having several so called "leaders".

 

[Gson]

Oscar will either DH or be in right. One out of Arias and Freeman will bat in the other spot.

There are more options than this... specifically, Tito getting Arias into the lineup as much as he can.. Arias showed he was ML ready in his second stint last season..

El Mole (Franmill) posted some interesting (SSS risk) numbers:

First stint: 20 PA's over 6 games: .105/.150/.105; 8 K's, 1BB, 30 wRC+
Second stint: 37 PA's over 20 games: .250/.417/.464; 8 K's, 7BB, 158 wRC+

The second/larger set says.. we need to see more.. and we will.. Here's how:

Against LHP's, these guys play:

Jose Ramirez 3B and DH
Josh Bell 1B and DH
Gabriel Arias 1B, 3B and DH
Tyler Freeman 2B and SS

There will be days Tito will want to give Jose Ramirez a day off his feet.. this would most likely be against LHP's to accommodate the best defensive option at the hot corner in Gabriel Arias.. Jose will DH those days.. he never wants to sit and watch.. ever..

The same situation will exist with Gimenez at 2B.. Tyler Freeman can fill in.. Gimenez won't be afforded that many opportunities to DH.. but, he might get a game or three in that role..

The reason Bell was brought in was as a RHH w/ thump.. The fact he's a switch hitter helps keep him in the lineup most, but not everyday.. Tito will decide that he'd rather protect/keep Bell well rested by having him DH versus LHP's while giving the defensive assignment to Arias..

The wealth of riches in versatility are clear with how this roster is being formed.. only one area of concern remains..

 

[sportscoach]

Sure do and there's plenty. I don't know why you have such a difficult time comprehending that, but I don't really care to be honest.

I believe in culture more than having several so called "leaders".

So who are our team leaders then?

 

[sportscoach]

You are absolutely correct, he should not be part of the conversation. He should be extended and he should be our shortstop for a long time.
Rcristal

I'll be honest, Rosario isn't going to be here past this season. He's going into free agency actually very young and an average SS on both sides of the ball. Some team will give him years. Cleveland has too much MIF talent that easily surpasses Rosario. It's impossible to keep Rosario past this season cause of said talent.

There is two reasons why Rosario is still in Cleveland... 1) is the fact he has become a leader and 2) no one is offering enough for Rosario in 23, to merit moving him...

If he didn't have one, they would have non-tendered him and moved on...

 

[CDAV45]

So who are our team leaders then?

Tito, Hale, Valaika, Alomar Jr, Willis, Sarbaugh, JRam, Naylor, Gimenez, Bell, Zunino, Kwan, Straw, Bieber, McKenzie, Civale, Quantrill, Clase and Stephan should be enough. Like I said, it's more about culture than having numerous "leaders". Work ethic, competitiveness and compatibility are musts to be a member of this organization. If you don't fit into those categories you'll be sent elsewhere or not chosen at all.