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The 2021 Cleveland Baseball Organization

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If I thought the dude could still play first base, I wouldn't shrug off the idea completely.

I'm not convinced of that. I doubt the Indians are either, what with an infield so lacking in proper fundamentals.
 
It would depend upon Pujols attitude...or maybe outlook is a better word.

I'm not worried about him cluttering up the roster. We already have some players cluttering up the roster.

But at first glance, I'd say no.

As for veteran presence, its something I believe in strongly. Just because it can't be measured doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The intangibles in a team sport are just as important as the intangibles.

We've had too many examples with the Indians to ignore.

We don't go to the 1997 Series without Matt Williams, who immediately took over team leadership. That was a team in transition with two trades that shook up the team, and Eddie Murray leaving.

And Uribe, Giambi, and esp Napoli made huge differences with their teams here.

All four of those guys wanted to WIN above everything else, and expected every teammate to want it...and work towards it...just as badly.

The present team is full of young guys full of spit and vinegar. But there aren't many guys to look up to and go to for advice...and no player sheriff in the clubhouse.
 
The Indians have been a landing spot for many veteran players near the end of their careers. Some had a positive impact, some just meh.
But old vets can usually find something left in the tank at just the right time.
Here's some I can remember:
Early Wynn
Frank Robinson
Satchel Paige (when was the last time his name was mentioned!)
Phil Niekro
Steve Carlton
Boog Powell
Jason Gianni
Mike Napoli
Coco Crisp
Kenny Lofton
Jim Thome

Looking at Pujols recent stats is meaningless. He's definitely over the hill. But could he shine just one more time in an important game? Could he give a tip to Franmil or other kids that changes something?
 
The problem with Pujols filling a Giambi-role with this club is that he has zero interest in doing so. Joe Maddon said that he was completely unwilling to be a bench player of any type, which is why they ultimately parted ways with him. I think we can all agree that making Pujols the everyday 1B here is something this organization would not even remotely consider.
 
One value Pujols may have is as a stadium filler/retirement tour, not sure that does anything in this Covid world... Wouldn't surprise me to see him sign a "ceremonial deal" with the Cards to play a final game or something though...
 
Kevalier said:
The problem with Pujols filling a Giambi-role with this club is that he has zero interest in doing so. Joe Maddon said that he was completely unwilling to be a bench player of any type, which is why they ultimately parted ways with him. I think we can all agree that making Pujols the everyday 1B here is something this organization would not even remotely consider.
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This is what I meant about attitude or outlook....and why I'm not enamored with the idea.

Nothing against Pujols at all, but some former stars have no interest in mentoring once they can't play.

In the cases above, Giambi, Uribe, and Napoli knew where they were in their careers and relished a kind of player/coach/mentoring role as a means of squeezing out another year or two.
 
Don't want anything to do with Pujols. A 200 hitter who clogs the bases, no thank you. And it sounds like he's more interested in padding his career numbers than anything else.
 
The one guy I would be legitimately interested in as an external replacement at 1B if the front office feels the need to upgrade there come late July would be our old friend Jesus Aguilar. Super early, obviously, but he has a .368 xWOBA, 137 wRC+, 13.8% BB rate and 14.7% K rate. Can't imagine the trade price would be too high either.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
The Indians have been a landing spot for many veteran players near the end of their careers. Some had a positive impact, some just meh.
But old vets can usually find something left in the tank at just the right time.
Here's some I can remember:
Early Wynn
Frank Robinson
Satchel Paige (when was the last time his name was mentioned!)
Phil Niekro
Steve Carlton
Boog Powell
Jason Gianni
Mike Napoli
Coco Crisp
Kenny Lofton
Jim Thome

Looking at Pujols recent stats is meaningless. He's definitely over the hill. But could he shine just one more time in an important game? Could he give a tip to Franmil or other kids that changes something?
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You forgot my favorite Old Man Tribe contributor of all time... Eddie Murray. I want to say he was almost 40 when he got here but played like he was 30.
 
sportscoach said:
What I am thinking as well... Not sure what team needs a veteran DH/1B that is mostly over the hill, like Pujols is, that has a legit playoff chance.

Question is, Is Pujols willing to take a very limited role like a platoon partner against only lefties while being a part time coach as well for a borderline playoff team? Are the Indians willing to give time to someone like Pujols?

It's one of those I don't think they will do it, but I won't have any qualms if they do sign him since there is positives as well.
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Luv ya sporstcoach, but you're out of your anime-loving mind with this one.

As has been pointed out, Napoli was still a good player that season, and so could lead by example. He earned his spot through his play, not because of his Obi-Wan like ability to guide young people.

Pujols would be a wild shot in the dark -- a vague hope that his terrible on-field play would be outweighed by a fantastic presence in the locker room. I question the message it would send to the rest of the roster to take up a spot with a guy whose on-field performance is that bad. And there's always the chance it could backfire and have the opposite effect. I mean, if his leadership overrode his terrible play, why didn't the 13-17 Angels keep him? Suppose we sign him, he expects to get on-field time, but we find out he sucks even worse than our remaining option and so he rides the pine. How will he respond to that? How did he respond to that with the Angels? How will the team respond if he starts getting surly about it? Just way to much potential negative for the potential of an intangible benefit.

I think leaders should emerge organically on a team. Trying to manufacture one by importing an outsider who most of the players don't know personally seems like a huge stretch.
 
Out of the Rafters at the Q said:
Of course there is. This is conjecture.

I feel the primary things Napoli brought in 2016 were T-shirt sales and fan excitement. We played a vet who couldn't hit good pitching and it sure as shit bit us.

But, even if you think he was some magic good luck charm, this team isn't 2016. We aren't full of a young, inexperienced core of players who have never been there before and don't know how to win. We have an entire organization that has done nothing but win. We have leaders and veterans who have been there before--we have plenty of people, both players and coaches, who were on that 2016 team.

Even if I concede that Napoli and Giambi mattered, we are a completely different situation now.
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Only 3 players remain from the 2016: Jose Ramirez, Roberto Perez and Bryan Shaw.

There are a handful of players who have made the playoffs in Cleveland after that 2016 team (like Bieber, Reyes, Karinchak, etc.) and none have been past the first round. The only players with non-Cleveland post season experience on the roster are Eddie Rosario and Rene Rivera and neither has advanced past the first round (3 wild card losses and 1 ALDS loss total between the 2).

If you’re making the point that there’s a culture of success here now that wasn’t here in 2016, I would agree. But I disagree if you’re making the point that this roster is experienced and battle tested for deep playoff runs because of what happened in 2016, or elsewhere.
 
NEOLeo said:
Only 3 players remain from the 2016: Jose Ramirez, Roberto Perez and Bryan Shaw.

There are a handful of players who have made the playoffs in Cleveland after that 2016 team (like Bieber, Reyes, Karinchak, etc.) and none have been past the first round. The only players with non-Cleveland post season experience on the roster are Eddie Rosario and Rene Rivera and neither has advanced past the first round (3 wild card losses and 1 ALDS loss total between the 2).

If you’re making the point that there’s a culture of success here now that wasn’t here in 2016, I would agree. But I disagree if you’re making the point that this roster is experienced and battle tested for deep playoff runs because of what happened in 2016, or elsewhere.
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The bolded is exactly my point.

I'd also say that those three players, specifically Jose, give more experience and leadership than our team had sans external sources in 2016.

Again, I don't think Napoli meant fuck-all to this team, except we had to play his dead weight ass that only hit regular season mistakes and couldn't hit decent pitching to save his life. I know that's not a popular take as everyone loved him and we sold a million "Party at Napoli's" shirts, but those shirts didn't mean a damn thing when he was unable to put his bat on the ball against good pitching in the playoffs.

But even if you do think he magically made everyone else better in a way that Tito and the rest of the coaching staff is incapable of, I'd attribute that to having a roster full of guys who hadn't been there before and didn't know how to win. Jose and Perez are two of the leaders of this organization, and both have been there before.

If we needed an old man river, we could've just kept Oli Perez.

This craving for another Napoli or Giambi feels more like personal need for nostalgia.
 
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