The 2023-2024 Off-Season Thread

[HammerGold]

Which is fair.

But honestly what makes you think that these organizations (some in which have won championships or competed for titles recently or are perennially contenders for their conference) can’t recognize what they have and hold onto these elite coaches ?

If you look at a guy like Vogel the Lakers screwed him by saddling him with Westbrook and a trash roster then scapegoated him. Is he as good as Spo? No but he's a quality above average coach which is light years above JBB who's one of the worst in the league.

 

[MirORich]

If you look at a guy like Vogel the Lakers screwed him by saddling him with Westbrook and a trash roster then scapegoated him. Is he as good as Spo? No but he's a quality above average coach which is light years above JBB who's one of the worst in the league.

If they screwed him by acquiring Westbrook and choosing him over Vogel then they also blessed him by hiring him to coach a LeBron James/AD roster that had athletic depth as well. That’s why he even has a championship on his resume, not because he’s some coaching savant. Is he solid? Sure. But the talent he was given hit him his ring, not some coaching masterclass

Vogel himself has also had three of his seven playoff appearances result in first round losses, second ncluding a 4-1 first round loss in his first playoff appearance. Yes it was to a great Bulls team that year, but the story remains the same, many good coaches, probably close to a majority lose their first playoff series in the first round.

Even Mike Malone for example didn’t make the playoffs until his 6th year as a head coach. Growth, continuity, and learning from mistakes is a real thing that happens for high players and for coaches

 

[HammerGold]

If they screwed him by acquiring Westbrook and choosing him over then they blessed him by hiring him to coach a LeBron James/AD roster that had athletic depth as well. That’s why he even has a championship on his resume, not because he’s some coaching savant. Is he solid? Sure. But the talent he was given hit him his ring, not some coaching masterclass

Sure but it's not just the titles, guy competed against the Heat with Paul George, Lance and Hibbert. He's shown he can both do more with less and win a title with a championship caliber roster

 

[MirORich]

Sure but it's not just the titles, guy competed against the Heat with Paul George, Lance and Hibbert. He's shown he can both do more with less and win a title with a championship caliber roster

And David West and in herbal a very talented and deep Indiana Pacers squad. Lots of talent on that team. I’m not trying to take away from his standing a a solid/good coach but the guy has not been given low talent teams and when he was in Orlando, he had to sub 30 win seasons. Now is that all his fault? Of course not but he was hardly transformative there.

Edit: added a second paragraph to the previous post in our exchange fyi

 

[HammerGold]

And David West and in herbal a very talented and deep Indiana Pacers squad. Lots of talent on that team. I’m not trying to take away from his standing a a solid/good coach but the guy has not been given low talent teams and when he was in Orlando, he had to sub 30 win seasons. Now is that all his fault? Of course not but he was hardly transformative there.

Edit: added a second paragraph to the previous post in our exchange fyi

I don't think those Pacers team were that talented. He squeezed the most out of Lance and Hibbert compared to any other coach. It was an okay roster but he certainly over achieved. And I'm not saying the guy is Pat Riley just that he's a clear upgrade over JBB.

 

[Bob_The_Cat]

I don't think those Pacers team were that talented. He squeezed the most out of Lance and Hibbert compared to any other coach. It was an okay roster but he certainly over achieved. And I'm not saying the guy is Pat Riley just that he's a clear upgrade over JBB.

They had a lot of talent on that team, and they were uniquely built to defend those Heat teams. George was still only 22 at the time. Hibbert was a multi-time all-star and all-defensive player in that stretch. They had talent, matched up well, and had guys that could make Wade, LeBron, and Bosh work defensively.

If George was in his prime vs early in his career, they definitely could’ve won that series. Wade and Bosh had terrible series and Hibbert destroyed their front court.

 

[PIP]

So why couldn’t he elevate the Orlando Magic ?

Or why couldn’t he take Westbrook and make it work in LA ? He still had LeBron & AD…

Definitely not convinced Vogel is a good coach…

 

[Tlyons]

Which is fair.

But honestly what makes you think that these organizations (some in which have won championships or competed for titles recently or are perennially contenders for their conference) can’t recognize what they have and hold onto these elite coaches ?

Monty - Phoenix has a new d bag owner. Monty gets unfairly blamed for Deandre Ayton wanting to be a finesse gamer big. They also traded all their role players and a budding star in Bridges for mid 30s Durant. Also back to back seasons of getting ran off the floor in elimination games can't be ignored.

Vogul - Scapegoated by Lebron's Lakers.

Udoka - obvious why he lost his job and it had nothing to do with basketball

Bud - Bucks got bored with him ( i didn't want him anyway, but still a clear upgrade over JBB). I think he rightfully got canned.

Nurse - Toronto is about to go full rebuild most likely

Sometimes teams just move on after a while.

 

[HammerGold]

So why couldn’t he elevate the Orlando Magic ?

Or why couldn’t he take Westbrook and make it work in LA ? He still had LeBron & AD…

Definitely not convinced Vogel is a good coach…

AD missed half the season and LeBron missed 25 games also. That team was so desperate they were playing a washed Melo almost 30 minutes. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

 

[Tlyons]

Vogul likely gets atleast a finals appearance with the Pacers if not for running into Heat Lebron twice.

 

[PIP]

And yet he couldn’t win 30 games with the Magic

 

[HammerGold]

And yet he couldn’t win 30 games with the Magic

He's 88-49 in the playoffs. What is JBB's playoff record?

 

[inliner311]

Which is fair.

But honestly what makes you think that these organizations (some in which have won championships or competed for titles recently or are perennially contenders for their conference) can’t recognize what they have and hold onto these elite coaches ?

I think there are only a few elite coaches in Spo, Pop, and Kerr. The next tier can win a championship but I think they are more of a piece of the puzzle of everything fitting together than someone that can work out the puzzle with almost any pieces. I think coaches like Vogel, Lue, Nurse, etc are about fitting in with the group and their offense/defense coming together with the player they have.

Basically teams are willing to roll the dice on a new guy when it isn't working because new eyes or voice can make a difference. Like I think Lue is a coach for a playoff phase of an organization but I don't think he is someone to develop and build a team. If he isn't getting it done in the playoffs then it's easy to make a shift to someone else that is a playoff phase coach because there isn't upside in keeping him if you might have to shift into another phase.

 

[2 For The Brew]

Careful, last time somebody received an oink slip it all ended with Burt Reynolds shooting the dude with a crossbow in West Virginia.

The mood this Board is in I’ll bet you’d get at least a 1/3 vote that would be an acceptable outcome.

 

[red.]