WWE/NXT/AEW/NJPW Thread

[CBBI]

They have backstage footage of Punk after the match airing on Rampage tonight, and another Dynamite to build the All Out main event. I get the “wtf is happening with this ppv” vibe, but I think that’s the point. They popped a great rating for Dynamite, every wrestling talking head is discussing this in detail, and the IWC is on fire trying to wrap their heads around what’s next? I personally love the unpredictability.

I just think when you're booking wrestling, you have to be careful with stuff like this.

There's a fine line between "oh my god!" which is what you want and "what the fuck?" which is not what you want.

Wednesday night trended a little too far into quizzical/skeptical "what the fuck are they doing?" territory and not "holy shit I have no idea what's gonna happen next and love it!" territory.

 

[CBBI]

We've literally seen guys stretchered out during a match and returning to finish it the same night. I don't see how Punk rebounding two weeks later seems insane or impossible. It's wrestling.

I mean of course it's not impossible, Jack. It's a work - but that's not the point.

The point is, in fake storyline terms, Punk just "got hurt" so badly in a match that he lost in 3 minutes. That type of "I'm hurt so badly that I got squashed like a bug" type of angle is almost never used. So how is he possibly going to do in storyline be able to better in 10 days with no time to "heal" up when he did so poorly after rehabbing it for almost 3 months?

On top of that, Punk is a main event guy who takes and treats his angles a little more seriously (Moxley not so much) than most guys in the company. Punk's not going to agree to be squashed flat because of a bad foot, get literally carried out and then just work a regular match two weeks later like that never happened.

They're not the guys in the midcard doing flips and dropping each other on their heads and hitting destroyers as transition moves and then popping up 15 seconds later like none of it happened.

 

[pr26]

They're not the guys in the midcard doing flips and dropping each other on their heads and hitting destroyers as transition moves and then popping up 15 seconds later like none of it happened.

Jim Cornette ITT!

Wrestling booking doesn’t have to be the same as it always has been….it can be fun too! That main event was a 5 star match IMO. Flippy shit, death matches, traditional tags, and traditional heavyweight wrestling can all be showcased on a show like AEW, which is why I watch! My favorite eras of wrestling were early Monday night wars WCW and earlier ECW, and it feels like AEW strikes a balance between both. We don’t need WWE-lite as the competition, they have plenty of air time as it is.

 

[CBBI]

Jim Cornette ITT!

Wrestling booking doesn’t have to be the same as it always has been….it can be fun too! That main event was a 5 star match IMO. Flippy shit, death matches, traditional tags, and traditional heavyweight wrestling can all be showcased on a show like AEW, which is why I watch! My favorite eras of wrestling were early Monday night wars WCW and earlier ECW, and it feels like AEW strikes a balance between both. We don’t need WWE-lite as the competition, they have plenty of air time as it is.

I'm not arguing against any of this. There's a lot of different styles featured on AEW on a weekly basis. Some styles are clearly much better than others in my opinion, but to each his own.

What I am saying is that because there are so many styles, it's not wise to hold everyone in every angle to the same standard in terms of how much selling you can and should expect in a match or in any angle.

There were what... 20? 25 spots? in the 6 man trios main event that looked more devastating and would, if this were a shoot, have done far more damage to the person taking the spot than Punk injuring his plant leg (he kicked with his right leg and sold his left leg btw) on one kick.

The main event angles, specifically anything to do with Punk, have been treated much more seriously than other stuff on the card, both by the announcers and by the talent themselves.

 

[Derek]

Jim Cornette ITT!

Wrestling booking doesn’t have to be the same as it always has been….it can be fun too! That main event was a 5 star match IMO. Flippy shit, death matches, traditional tags, and traditional heavyweight wrestling can all be showcased on a show like AEW, which is why I watch! My favorite eras of wrestling were early Monday night wars WCW and earlier ECW, and it feels like AEW strikes a balance between both. We don’t need WWE-lite as the competition, they have plenty of air time as it is.

Ospreay might be the best in the world right now. I hope to see him more and more in AEW moving forward.

The match Wednesday blew me away. One of the best I’ve seen all year. Didn’t feel like a spot fest at all. Everything flowed really well and made sense within the match.

 

[Derek]

However, there have been multiple Lucha Bros tag matches that lost me, and the Kingston/Jericho Barbed Wire Everywhere match was a dud, in my opinion.

Nobody bats 1.000 though.

 

[CBBI]

Ospreay might be the best in the world right now. I hope to see him more and more in AEW moving forward.

The match Wednesday blew me away. One of the best I’ve seen all year. Didn’t feel like a spot fest at all. Everything flowed really well and made sense within the match.

If I was AEW, not only would I'd be trying to sign Ospreay immediately, I'd be looking to stick him into the main event picture the moment he puts pen to paper.

If you are a fan of that chaotic/warpspeed/indy/modern/whatever you wanna call it in-ring style, then obviously you thought the trios main event was spectacular.

If you don't love that style, and I admit I don't love it, it was still a good match with plenty of cool spots. But 26 straight minutes of car wrecks is just tough on me. Eventually I just get numb to repeated high spot after high spot.

They could have shaved 8-10 minutes off and it would have basically been the exact same match IMO.

 

[CBBI]

At the risk of sounding like an asshole, here are generally the only problems I have with the current in-ring product across wrestling, but really specifically in AEW...

1. Matches go too long
2. There's too many kickouts
3. There's not enough selling

But basically that's it. The athleticism in the current wrestling product is off the charts. As good as it's ever been. A lot of these guys are capable of telling really great stories in the ring when they want to.

I just think generally matches go too long. There's no need to go 15 when you can tell the same story in 8. There's no need to go 20 when you can tell the same story in 12.

HUGE high spots get two counts when they should put the guy taking the move in a wheelchair and far too often matches devolve into "guy get spiked on his head and comes back 15 second later" non-selling.

 

[Derek]

At the risk of sounding like an asshole, here are generally the only problems I have with the current in-ring product across wrestling, but really specifically in AEW...

1. Matches go too long
2. There's too many kickouts
3. There's not enough selling

But basically that's it. The athleticism in the current wrestling product is off the charts. As good as it's ever been. A lot of these guys are capable of telling really great stories in the ring when they want to.

I just think generally matches go too long. There's no need to go 15 when you can tell the same story in 8. There's no need to go 20 when you can tell the same story in 12.

HUGE high spots get two counts when they should put the guy taking the move in a wheelchair and far too often matches devolve into "guy get spiked on his head and comes back 15 second later" non-selling.

I think 8 is really a bare minimum. Really tough to get both guys over in any less time. I can’t think of many AEW matches I thought drug on though. I really thought that Trios match Wednesday was perfect.

That’s been one of the huge improvements WWE has made recently. Giving guys 10-12 minutes provides them with enough time to get both guys over regardless of the result.

All those 3-5 minute matches were killing the product, but now that we’re getting consistently longer matches, the short ones really pique your interest, which is the entire point of squash matches anyway.

 

[CBBI]

I think 8 is really a bare minimum. Really tough to get both guys over in any less time. I can’t think of many AEW matches I thought drug on though. I really thought that Trios match Wednesday was perfect.

That’s been one of the huge improvements WWE has made recently. Giving guys 10-12 minutes provides them with enough time to get both guys over regardless of the result.

All those 3-5 minute matches were killing the product, but now that we’re getting consistently longer matches, the short ones really pique your interest, which is the entire point of squash matches anyway.

But see that's the thing. I strongly disagree with you that every match or even most matches need to get both guys over. More often than not when you're attempting to get both guys over, you end up hurting the more valuable of the two guys more than you end up helping the less valuable of the two guys.

Case and point...

Kenny Omega had a tremendous match from a pure work rate perspective with Alan Angels of the Dark Order back in 2020. Theoretically it should have gotten both guys over because Kenny won, but it also made Angels look like he could hang with a top guy, right? But that's a fallacy.

It actually made Omega look worse because it took him so long to beat a guy who before they had the match had been presented as clearly two or three levels lower on the card than Omega. Angels ended up getting nothing out of it either because there were never any plans to use him in a higher role. It was wrestling for the sake of wrestling. Was it good in-ring work? Sure, but who cares? Everyone can pretty much work at a competent or better level at this point and no one benefitted in the end.

Generally speaking, I don't think trying to get both people over should be the goal of most matches unless it's deep into an actual program with some actual stakes between the two. When it does happen, great! But some guys and girls are just on the card to get the other guy or girl over and that's just the way it is.

I think a lot of people in AEW have convinced themselves that giving everyone enough time to get their best moves in will mean everyone will want to be seen by the fans again, but it's really not that. It's all about how a person is consistently presented to the audience over how well they can work.

 

[Derek]

But see that's the thing. I strongly disagree with you that every match or even most matches need to get both guys over. More often than not when you're attempting to get both guys over, you end up hurting the more valuable of the two guys more than you end up helping the less valuable of the two guys.

Case and point...

Kenny Omega had a tremendous match from a pure work rate perspective with Alan Angels of the Dark Order back in 2020. Theoretically it should have gotten both guys over because Kenny won, but it also made Angels look like he could hang with a top guy, right? But that's a fallacy.

It actually made Omega look worse because it took him so long to beat a guy who before they had the match had been presented as clearly two or three levels lower on the card than Omega. Angels ended up getting nothing out of it either because there were never any plans to use him in a higher role. It was wrestling for the sake of wrestling. Was it good in-ring work? Sure, but who cares? Everyone can pretty much work at a competent or better level at this point and no one benefitted in the end.

Generally speaking, I don't think trying to get both people over should be the goal of most matches unless it's deep into an actual program with some actual stakes between the two. When it does happen, great! But some guys and girls are just on the card to get the other guy or girl over and that's just the way it is.

I think a lot of people in AEW have convinced themselves that giving everyone enough time to get their best moves in will mean everyone will want to be seen by the fans again, but it's really not that. It's all about how a person is consistently presented to the audience over how well they can work.

I think this is another thing we’ll have to chalk up to different tastes. I think the opposite. Most matches should get both guys over with the squash matches being rare. That’s how WWE got so bad. They got to a point where they had so few legitimate contenders. Thank god HHH came in and started fixing this.

One of the things I love about AEW is that they have dozens of guys who could potentially take the champ to the limit on any given night.

Maybe you have an Alan Angels that doesn’t get over (at least not then, he’s building momentum on the indies now), but you also get success stories like Takeshita out of it, too.

Yeah, they often times have matches just for the sake of having matches. Those are what I think of as the regular season match ups. Even if there isn’t a story, they do matter because they track wins and losses.

 

[CBBI]

I think this is another thing we’ll have to chalk up to different tastes. I think the opposite. Most matches should get both guys over with the squash matches being rare. That’s how WWE got so bad. They got to a point where they had so few legitimate contenders. Thank god HHH came in and started fixing this.

One of the things I love about AEW is that they have dozens of guys who could potentially take the champ to the limit on any given night.

Maybe you have an Alan Angels that doesn’t get over (at least not then, he’s building momentum on the indies now), but you also get success stories like Takeshita out of it, too.

WWE not giving guys enough in-ring time to get both guys over wasn't even close to their biggest problem.

IMO it was a two-fold problem.

1. 50/50 booking - very rarely did anyone outside of like the one very tippy top guy at a given time (Cena, Roman, a couple of others) actually definitively win a program. One guy would win, then the other guy would win two weeks later, then at what we thought would be the "blow off" one guy would win by cheating and it wouldn't actually be the blow off, then the program would continue and the other guy would get his win back the next month. No one ever got over because no one ever really went over. Everyone just traded wins until no one had real value as a top guy.

2. Tying in to point one, for the last like 10 years, the WWE main roster also had this this horrible issue of laser focusing guys into the person they're feuding with and that's it. If Dolph Ziggler is feuding with The Miz, then Dolph and Miz would end up working 8-10 times in singles matches tags matches over a 2-3 month program without really working anybody else. People for literally years and years would rarely work outside of their program and if they did it was just to set up a run in or interference by the guy they're in the program with.

It always felt like you were watching the same thing every week... because more often than not you were always watching the same thing every week.

 

[Derek]

Yes, you absolutely need guys like QT Marshall and the Factory, JD Drake, Serpentico, Ryan Nemeth, Peter Avalon to help guys pad their records, but I’m not interested in seeing the old WWE shit where Ciampa loses in 4 minutes to AJ Styles when I know a 12 minute match gets both guys over.

I don’t want to stuff like Ricochet getting squashed and made to look like a little bitch repeatedly against Gunther.

There should be a few dozen guys on the roster that can take each other to the limit on any given night.

 

[Derek]

WWE not giving guys enough in-ring time to get both guys over wasn't even close to their biggest problem.

IMO it was a two-fold problem.

1. 50/50 booking - very rarely did anyone outside of like the one very tippy top guy at a given time (Cena, Roman, a couple of others) actually definitively win a program. One guy would win, then the other guy would win two weeks later, then at what we thought would be the "blow off" one guy would win by cheating and it wouldn't actually be the blow off, then the program would continue and the other guy would get his win back the next month. No one ever got over because no one ever really went over. Everyone just traded wins until no one had real value as a top guy.

2. Tying in to point one, for the last like 10 years, the WWE main roster also had this this horrible issue of laser focusing guys into the person they're feuding with and that's it. If Dolph Ziggler is feuding with The Miz, then Dolph and Miz would end up working 8-10 times in singles matches tags matches over a 2-3 month program without really working anybody else. People for literally years and years would rarely work outside of their program and if they did it was just to set up a run in or interference by the guy they're in the program with.

It always felt like you were watching the same thing every week... because more often than not you were always watching the same thing every week.

Those were issues, yes, but it’s amazing how once HHH took over, and guys started getting more in-ring time, that the product got significantly better.

For example, word is we’re getting Zayn/McIntyre tonight.

Two months ago, I’d be expecting a 4 minute squash. Now, I’m excited for it. Sami isn’t going to win, but I’m betting he gets the chance to put on a show.

 

[CBBI]

I'd go so far as to make the case that there's really only two things that truly and consistently get people over in wrestling.

1. The ability to talk/promo/connect with the audience as a personality - the better a person can do this, the less important reason two actually is.

2. Winning matches on television

And that's it.

The idea that people can get over in a big way with just their in-ring work is just not something I agree with in any respect. It obviously doesn't hurt if someone is an excellent wrestler, but people need a reason to care beyond "this guy can do cool moves"

Guys and girls need to be booked and presented appropriately. And if they're not, they need to have the ability to establish a connection with the audience anyway to truly get over.