Love/Wiggins Trade Revisited

Not a stat to end all stats but it really is a good telling of Love's performance especially racking up rebounds and never shooting another shot after the 1st quarter. Another good indicator since it was just Kyrie who shot with great percentages while shooting a ton. Bottomline: There aren't many great +26 without being a monster on the offensive end, let alone having your last shot in the first Q.

All I hear about is how good this Wiggins can be when he plays us but never when he sucks against other teams. Another great reason for trading him because he'll never play with passion if we never traded him. /s

Hope this thread gets revisited more often. Can't be just Cavs-Wolves games.

I'll revisit it since I was curious and brought it up earlier tonight.

Games with Rubio: 9.2 PPG on 39% shooting from the floor
Games without Rubio: 16.3 PPG on 43% shooting from the floor

Only 7 games with Rubio, so it is a very small sample compared to the 42 without him, but it is still interesting to see a 7 point per game drop and worse shooting from the floor with a PG who usually puts his players in good spots to score. Obviously there were some other injuries, Kevin Martin most notably, so his scoring numbers were inflated while Rubio was out, but his shooting % went up on more shots. Makes me wonder if he is better with the ball in his hands than playing off of Rubio. Something to keep an eye on with Rubio back for the rest of the year.

Also reassures me that he would not be having the same amount of success on offense as he is in Minny if he is watching LeBron and Kyrie with the ball the majority of the game. This was the biggest win/win trade I have ever seen at the time of the trade, and I think it still is (as long as Love re-signs long term that is). Got Love out of the hell hole in Minnesota and provided floor spacing and elite rebounding for the Cavs, and expedited the T'Wolves rebuild and Wiggins growth to where he can't float out there, one of his knocks at Kansas and during the pre and post draft processes.

It will be interesting to see what the Suns get for Dragic if they pull the trigger. An all-NBA player in the last year of his contract telling his team that he will not re-sign. A very similar situation to what Love would have been in, though most would agree that Love is a level above Dragic. I predict a mediocre return, followed by much conversation concluding that Saunders played the Cavs like a fiddle.

NasstyNate said:

It will be interesting to see what the Suns get for Dragic if they pull the trigger. An all-NBA player in the last year of his contract telling his team that he will not re-sign. A very similar situation to what Love would have been in, though most would agree that Love is a level above Dragic. I predict a mediocre return, followed by much conversation concluding that Saunders played the Cavs like a fiddle.

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Dragic is having a very mediocre season. He has a 16.6 PER with 16 points and 4 assists per game. In fact, I'd posit last year was his only really good NBA season. I think he is two or three levels behind Love. Not really comparable.

NasstyNate said:

It will be interesting to see what the Suns get for Dragic if they pull the trigger. An all-NBA player in the last year of his contract telling his team that he will not re-sign. A very similar situation to what Love would have been in, though most would agree that Love is a level above Dragic. I predict a mediocre return, followed by much conversation concluding that Saunders played the Cavs like a fiddle.

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Love plays a much more coveted position (the NBA is loaded with very good PGs), has achieved WAY more in the league, and the Cavs got him for an entire season (as opposed to 2-3 months remaining for Dragic). Apples to oranges.

Hydroponic3385 said:

Love plays a much more coveted position (the NBA is loaded with very good PGs), has achieved WAY more in the league, and the Cavs got him for an entire season (as opposed to 2-3 months remaining for Dragic). Apples to oranges.

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PG and PF are pretty comparable in terms of talent. Either way, I think you missed the point, which is it is interesting to think about what Love would have brought the Wolves had they waited until the trade deadline to move him.

jking948 said:

Dragic is having a very mediocre season. He has a 16.6 PER with 16 points and 4 assists per game. In fact, I'd posit last year was his only really good NBA season. I think he is two or three levels behind Love. Not really comparable.

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Dont be fooled. if you watch the Suns this year, Hornacek is having a helluva time figuring out which guards to have on the floor and when. Bledsoe is such a great defender its hard to pull him, mighty mouse is a microwave scorer who catches fire so it's hard to sit him when he's rolling, plus guys like Gerald Green and PJ Tucker are gobbling up shots. Markieff Morris is their best player and needs touches.

Dragic is still one of the better PGs in the game, and the skills are still there. Just hasnt had the minutes or the ball enough is all. Not a down year for ability reasons.

jlegg21 said:

Dont be fooled. if you watch the Suns this year, Hornacek is having a helluva time figuring out which guards to have on the floor and when. Bledsoe is such a great defender its hard to pull him, mighty mouse is a microwave scorer who catches fire so it's hard to sit him when he's rolling, plus guys like Gerald Green and PJ Tucker are gobbling up shots. Markieff Morris is their best player and needs touches.

Dragic is still one of the better PGs in the game, and the skills are still there. Just hasnt had the minutes or the ball enough is all. Not a down year for ability reasons.

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Right on. He's getting a max deal.

jlegg21 said:

Dont be fooled. if you watch the Suns this year, Hornacek is having a helluva time figuring out which guards to have on the floor and when. Bledsoe is such a great defender its hard to pull him, mighty mouse is a microwave scorer who catches fire so it's hard to sit him when he's rolling, plus guys like Gerald Green and PJ Tucker are gobbling up shots. Markieff Morris is their best player and needs touches.

Dragic is still one of the better PGs in the game, and the skills are still there. Just hasnt had the minutes or the ball enough is all. Not a down year for ability reasons.

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I've watched Phoenix play multiple times this year. Dragic is definitely better than Thomas but I don't think he is a max player of Love's caliber. Love was recording some insanely high PER's on a team that was playing far above their talent level. Dragic is a starting point guard but, even in the East, nowhere close to all-star caliber. I just think comparing this trade to Love is ridiculous.

jking948 said:

I've watched Phoenix play multiple times this year. Dragic is definitely better than Thomas but I don't think he is a max player of Love's caliber. Love was recording some insanely high PER's on a team that was playing far above their talent level. Dragic is a starting point guard but, even in the East, nowhere close to all-star caliber. I just think comparing this trade to Love is ridiculous.

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Comparing the trades probably isnt a good idea, considering Dragic is on record saying he doesnt trust the front office in PHX and wants to play in NY, LA or Miami. His trade value is nickels on the dollar for that reason, and the fact that the NBA is loaded with talented PGs. However, Dragic is definitely in the top half, maybe even top 10. It's all about roster fit with him, and I definitely think he'll put up his 2013 numbers if he's placed in a system where the ball is in his hands again.

Love does have more value because he does things at his position that very few can. He's a stretch 4 who can score in a variety of ways, rebounds at a high level, and throws those pretty outlet passes. His game is completely unique and he opens up the Cavs offense even when his shot isnt falling. People are too hung up on his stats and the short term nature of his contract. You trade the talented rookie for that guy every time, especially if he stays here like I think he will.

Really the only thing I strongly disagree with you on is the bolded part. Those PERs were meaningless in terms of wins and losses, and the Wolves never, in any way shape or form, played above their talent level. They were terrible in spite of Love's play.

At any rate, two completely different situations IMO.

I've been a big critic of the Wiggins trade, but only because Love was on a one year year deal and no team has given up the kind of assets we did for a top all star on the last year of his deal. See what Howard, Chris Paul fetched. If he re-signs for a long time, then I get the trade.

I also would have at least waited until tomorrow to pull the trigger since Love only wanted to come here. This way, we would have seen the improvement Wiggins made and any injury or head issues that has been hampering Love.

I get that there is a short window for LeBron to get a ring, but I also get that there is no assurance of a ring and Wiggins brings continuity, just like the Spurs or Lakers had.

I still maintain that we could have gotten Love here without Wiggins. The point is, the Cavs had the leverage, not the Timberwolves. Griffin blinked, in my opinion.

For all the talk from Gilbert about taking risks, I think they played it too safe by caving in to Flip.

The jury is still out. If the Cavs are an early exit, Wiggins goes on to be the next Kobe and Love is one and done, it goes down as one of the worst trades in franchise/NBA history. On the other hand, If Love and the Cavs mesh, he re-signs a long deal and we get a couple rings out of it, I will be the first to bow down to Griffin and admit how little some of us know.

Redzone said:

I've been a big critic of the Wiggins trade, but only because Love was on a one year year deal and no team has given up the kind of assets we did for a top all star on the last year of his deal. See what Howard, Chris Paul fetched. If he re-signs for a long time, then I get the trade.

I also would have at least waited until tomorrow to pull the trigger since Love only wanted to come here. This way, we would have seen the improvement Wiggins made and any injury or head issues that has been hampering Love.

I get that there is a short window for LeBron to get a ring, but I also get that there is no assurance of a ring and Wiggins brings continuity, just like the Spurs or Lakers had.

I still maintain that we could have gotten Love here without Wiggins. The point is, the Cavs had the leverage, not the Timberwolves. Griffin blinked, in my opinion.

For all the talk from Gilbert about taking risks, I think they played it too safe by caving in to Flip.

The jury is still out. If the Cavs are an early exit, Wiggins goes on to be the next Kobe and Love is one and done, it goes down as one of the worst trades in franchise/NBA history. On the other hand, If Love and the Cavs mesh, he re-signs a long deal and we get a couple rings out of it, I will be the first to bow down to Griffin and admit how little some of us know.

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I guess I dont get that line of thinking at all. Love has struggled to assimilate with 50+ games in the books, can you imagine how rough it would have been to get he and the team comfortable down the stretch? The Cavs will be hard-pressed to get to the Finals as it stands now, with a whole season of learning and growing.

This whole hindsight on the Wiggins trade is extremely counterproductive. Once Lebron came back, we were a title contender instantly. Love was on the table (pretty much to Clevelad only, likely facilitated by some back room discussions between he and Lebron), and yes, I suppose the Cavs "blinked" and got a top 3 PF with a skill-set no one else in the NBA has. If that's playing it "too safe", so be it.

Wiggins is essentially doing what Love did for so many years - toil away as the best/most talented player putting up good numbers on a crappy lottery team, and he's likely looking at that situation for the duration of his rookie deal. I mean, they're 11-42 at the break, dead last in the West. If luck would have it and he blossoms into half the player Kobe was, that's no longer our concern, but I would be surprised.

Could Love leave? I guess it's possible, but he's almost guaranteed to go to a worse situation if he expects to contend, which is the reason he came here to play with James and Irving in the first place. There are games where you can absolutely see the potential of having this big 3 (all 30 or younger) dominate the East for years to come. Why pick nits?

This thread, like so many others around here, is merely a case study in hindsight and tail chasing, nothing more. I, for one, am very happy with our roster as currently constructed (Griff has turned assets into quality players) and I cant wait until it really starts firing on all cylinders.

jlegg21 said:

Comparing the trades probably isnt a good idea, considering Dragic is on record saying he doesnt trust the front office in PHX and wants to play in NY, LA or Miami. His trade value is nickels on the dollar for that reason, and the fact that the NBA is loaded with talented PGs. However, Dragic is definitely in the top half, maybe even top 10. It's all about roster fit with him, and I definitely think he'll put up his 2013 numbers if he's placed in a system where the ball is in his hands again.

Love does have more value because he does things at his position that very few can. He's a stretch 4 who can score in a variety of ways, rebounds at a high level, and throws those pretty outlet passes. His game is completely unique and he opens up the Cavs offense even when his shot isnt falling. People are too hung up on his stats and the short term nature of his contract. You trade the talented rookie for that guy every time, especially if he stays here like I think he will.

Really the only thing I strongly disagree with you on is the bolded part. Those PERs were meaningless in terms of wins and losses, and the Wolves never, in any way shape or form, played above their talent level. They were terrible in spite of Love's play.

At any rate, two completely different situations IMO.

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I totally agree with most of this. Just to explain my point about the stats is that Love, on a Minnesota team that is pretty much identical (sans Corey Brewer but with Wiggins and Lavine) they were a 40 win team. Now they will be lucky to get 20. So I don't think Love's numbers were meaningless. Now, maybe they weren't totally representative of his overall team impact, but they did show how important he was to that team.

jlegg21 said:

I guess I dont get that line of thinking at all. Love has struggled to assimilate with 50+ games in the books, can you imagine how rough it would have been to get he and the team comfortable down the stretch? The Cavs will be hard-pressed to get to the Finals as it stands now, with a whole season of learning and growing.

This whole hindsight on the Wiggins trade is extremely counterproductive. Once Lebron came back, we were a title contender instantly. Love was on the table (pretty much to Clevelad only, likely facilitated by some back room discussions between he and Lebron), and yes, I suppose the Cavs "blinked" and got a top 3 PF with a skill-set no one else in the NBA has. If that's playing it "too safe", so be it.

Wiggins is essentially doing what Love did for so many years - toil away as the best/most talented player putting up good numbers on a crappy lottery team, and he's likely looking at that situation for the duration of his rookie deal. I mean, they're 11-42 at the break, dead last in the West. If luck would have it and he blossoms into half the player Kobe was, that's no longer our concern, but I would be surprised.

Could Love leave? I guess it's possible, but he's almost guaranteed to go to a worse situation if he expects to contend, which is the reason he came here to play with James and Irving in the first place. There are games where you can absolutely see the potential of having this big 3 (all 30 or younger) dominate the East for years to come. Why pick nits?

This thread, like so many others around here, is merely a case study in hindsight and tail chasing, nothing more. I, for one, am very happy with our roster as currently constructed (Griff has turned assets into quality players) and I cant wait until it really starts firing on all cylinders.

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I will agree with most of this post even though I was vocally against moving Wiggins in a deal for Love prior to the trade. Once it happened, I pretty much immediately moved on.

Obviously, if Wiggins turns into "Maple Jordan" as was his nickname in high school, it is going to hurt. At the same time, there is no doubt in my mind that the Cavs' ability to trade for Love with Wiggins is one of the major reasons LeBron James came back in the first place. I seriously doubt LeBron -- now 30 years old -- was willing to sit back and wait for a 19-year-old rookie to become an impact player on a championship-level team when the franchise had the opportunity to use him to get a Top 3 player at his position (who also happens to be just 25 himself) in exchange.

Comparing this to other situations, especially one like Goran Dragic, in an attempt to add more context to the Love trade is crazy. The Cavs were in a position that most franchises aren't likely to face any time soon. The youngest roster in the entire NBA suddenly discovers that it is the most likely landing spot for the best player of his generation with the (spoken or unspoken) promise that moves would be made to turn the team into one that could contend immediately.

The result was a historic haul by Flip Saunders, but I give him very little credit for it. He lucked into a once-in-a-generation series of events... (1) the Cavs miraculously win the lottery for the third time in four years; (2) Irving signs a max contract helping to ensure a bright future for the franchise; (3) Kevin Love announces (during the draft) through his agent that, if the Cavs have LeBron James and they make a trade for him, he will extend in Cleveland; (4) LeBron James announces he is coming to Cleveland.

If even one of those elements did not transpire, the TWolves right now would likely be lamenting a mediocre return or desperately clinging to Love in hopes of a homerun offer being made at the last minute.



I choose not to roll my eyes every time Love misses a jumper or Wiggins makes a highlight reel play. It's counterproductive at this point. The thing that has been interesting me lately as I think back to the summer and our collective excitement for the draft is this... What if Joel Embiid never gets hurt in the lead-up to the draft?

Because, I still think he was far and away the best talent available and may well become the guy most of us thought he was prior to his workout here. If Embiid is cleared totally healthy, do we trade him in a Kevin Love deal? Or, was he the kind of once-in-a-generation bigman talent that you don't trade regardless of the circumstances?

As I watch him prepare to start heavy contact drills, I think the latter.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OdqsZUqYDk&app=desktop