Indians Trade Garko to Giants

Amherstcavsfan said:

Fixed.

Owner has nothing to do with the 90's success.

Click to expand...

To win games these days, we'll need some money.

Cavsfan89 said:

To win games these days, we'll need some money.

Click to expand...

You require more than 81 million? Because newsflash, anyone who buys the Indians will not put anything more than 90 Million into the team.

The Indians have been given plenty of money, they have spent it very poorly in the unholy trinity of contracts of Westbrook/Hafner/Wood.

WHORE-FRACK! WHORE-FRACK! WHORE-FRACK!

Amherstcavsfan said:

You require more than 81 million? Because newsflash, anyone who buys the Indians will not put anything more than 90 Million into the team.

The Indians have been given plenty of money, they have spent it very poorly in the unholy trinity of contracts of Westbrook/Hafner/Wood.

Click to expand...

This is absolutely moronic.

Westbrook has been a solid contributor for several years. Hafner had an injury, which who can predict and got hit in the damn face by a ball and still can rake. All everybody did was complain about blowoski, year after year we go after the best closer, this year we got the best of the previous years, and he barely gets to pitch.

cavincali said:

This is absolutely moronic.

Westbrook has been a solid contributor for several years. Hafner had an injury, which who can predict and got hit in the damn face by a ball and still can rake. All everybody did was complain about blowoski, year after year we go after the best closer, this year we got the best of the previous years, and he barely gets to pitch.

Click to expand...

I'm not disagreeing that they were good at the time they were given to said players, however that is why the team is currently getting ready to dump Lee and Victor.

As for Garko, he was traded because he was blocking other high ceiling players.

In hindsight, giving a massive contract to DH was not a smart idea, however, the other two is bad luck/bad managing.

Cavsfan89 said:

We'll never return to 90's form until we get a new owner, a new GM, a new manager, and all new coaches.

Click to expand...

Perhaps, but ownership is not the core issue IMO..

You do realize the Indians of today did the same with some of their guys as they did back then in the 90's, right ?

Here's the difference.. The Indians of the late 80's/early 90's drafted two hall of famers in Ramirez and Thome, and another guy in Belle, who would have had Hall Of Fame numbers if not for his hip..

When you draft 3 hall of fame talents, you're doing something right... This group has not done such a thing.. Shapiro has not drafted any hall of famers.. Hell, he hasn't drafted any all stars or real big league talent whatsoever... He's traded for it, but not drafted it...

The Indians traded for Lofton, Omar and Alomar.. You add those guys to the hall of fame caliber of talent, and you're gonna have something special..

Like the former, this current regime has locked up guys to deals to keep them around, the difference here is Sizemore, Hafner and the like are not cut from the same cloth as those guys...

The draft needs to be the most important tool and avenue for the Indians to get back, that along with getting some of these trades right to infuse the quality young talent within the organization that they weren't able to come up with on their own...

Yeah, PIP, the draft is the key issue here. The issue is not ownership, nor is it excessive trading of big league talent, nor is it the manager. I'm a Shapiro fan, but he and Antionetti have not done anything in the draft as far as bringing players to the major league level. They have showed more in the last 1 or 2 years, but that talent is still in the minors and has not contributed to the big league team.

AndreMiller2424 said:

Yeah, PIP, the draft is the key issue here. The issue is not ownership, nor is it excessive trading of big league talent, nor is it the manager. I'm a Shapiro fan, but he and Antionetti have not done anything in the draft as far as bringing players to the major league level. They have showed more in the last 1 or 2 years, but that talent is still in the minors and has not contributed to the big league team.

Click to expand...

Whoa whoa whoa, Shapiro and Wedge are the DIRECT issue here. They are responsible for drafting and developing talent into Major League players, they have never done so. Wedge has, as far as I can count, ran Phillips, Guthrie, and now Garko off this team because he could never figure out how to use them. Wedge isn't awful, but for a team that needs a great manager, Wedge isn't the guy.

As far as Shapiro goes, he needs to be promoted so he can be taken out of the GM role. For as great as his trades are, his drafting is just absolute shit. They need to fire their draft scouts immediately, because their drafting hasn't been good since Hart left.

Yeah, I do not like Wedge.. I would make a change there...

I've always been intrigued with the prospects of Sandy managing.. If we're going to go young, we might as well go young with the managing...Would be a good PR move, and could prove to work.. Catchers usually make the best managers (or so they say) and Sandy was always an intense guy, so maybe it would work ??

I know I would much rather have a guy like Ozzie Guillen than Eric Wedge...

Amherstcavsfan said:

Whoa whoa whoa, Shapiro and Wedge are the DIRECT issue here. They are responsible for drafting and developing talent into Major League players, they have never done so. Wedge has, as far as I can count, ran Phillips, Guthrie, and now Garko off this team because he could never figure out how to use them. Wedge isn't awful, but for a team that needs a great manager, Wedge isn't the guy.

As far as Shapiro goes, he needs to be promoted so he can be taken out of the GM role. For as great as his trades are, his drafting is just absolute shit. They need to fire their draft scouts immediately, because their drafting hasn't been good since Hart left.

Click to expand...

I didn't dismiss any blame ayway from Shapiro. I think he shares a lot of blame for mis-managing the draft in the years he's been here, but he also deserves a lot of credit for some of his other moves.

Also, I don't know the inner-workings of the Indians front office, but I highly, highly doubt Wedge has any say in the draft process. That is the responsbility of Shapiro, Antoinetti, scouts, and others in the F.O.

Re: Phillips and Guthrie. Don't group Garko in this group for 2 reasons. 1) Garko was not a complete bust in Cleveland. 2) For Phillips and Guthrie, we're using hindsight to support the idea that Wedge screwed up. Garko has no excelled with the Giants, so we don't know if he will be anything more than he was in Cleveland.

I'm not quite understanding your last point about Shapiro being promoted. What is the position above GM? Unless I'm not sensing sarcasm or whatever.

Amherstcavsfan said:

Whoa whoa whoa, Shapiro and Wedge are the DIRECT issue here. They are responsible for drafting and developing talent into Major League players, they have never done so. Wedge has, as far as I can count, ran Phillips, Guthrie, and now Garko off this team because he could never figure out how to use them. Wedge isn't awful, but for a team that needs a great manager, Wedge isn't the guy.

As far as Shapiro goes, he needs to be promoted so he can be taken out of the GM role. For as great as his trades are, his drafting is just absolute shit. They need to fire their draft scouts immediately, because their drafting hasn't been good since Hart left.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but I can't agree with the Wedge not knowing how to use Garko..

When you have a backup catcher who had a breakout year & showed a lot of power, when your starting catcher can also play 1B and happens to be your best hitter, Garko's not gonna play everyday..

Hell, Wedge even had him learn the OF in the spring so he can get more AB's.. how is that not knowing how to use him? If anything, that's trying to get him more opportunities..

Guthrie wouldn't have done anything had he gone to any place but Baltimore w/ Mazzone.. Mazzone fixed him up real nice.. he proved nothing here

Phillips got off on the wrong foot almost right away, when he got sent to the minors but refused to listen to the coaches who were trying to fix his long swing.. he needed a change of scenery..

Do I think the Indians have done a good job of developing talent? Not at all, they have lots of room for improvement.. but these 3 guys are relatively bad examples, as all had certain circumstances where they just needed to move on..

Now, if you had said Andy Marte, Jeremy Sowers, the inconsistencies of Aaron Laffey, Ben Francisco, Aubrey.. I would've agreed wholeheartedly..

These guys are either just AAAA guys or something's wrong with our developmental system.. cause they tear it up at AAA and have nothing left to prove.. but every chance we give them, poof...

AndreMiller2424 said:

I didn't dismiss any blame ayway from Shapiro. I think he shares a lot of blame for mis-managing the draft in the years he's been here, but he also deserves a lot of credit for some of his other moves.

Also, I don't know the inner-workings of the Indians front office, but I highly, highly doubt Wedge has any say in the draft process. That is the responsbility of Shapiro, Antoinetti, scouts, and others in the F.O.

Re: Phillips and Guthrie. Don't group Garko in this group for 2 reasons. 1) Garko was not a complete bust in Cleveland. 2) For Phillips and Guthrie, we're using hindsight to support the idea that Wedge screwed up. Garko has no excelled with the Giants, so we don't know if he will be anything more than he was in Cleveland.

I'm not quite understanding your last point about Shapiro being promoted. What is the position above GM? Unless I'm not sensing sarcasm or whatever.

Click to expand...

Shapiro should be President and Antonetti GM, as I don't think Shapiro is cut out for entirely to be a great General Manager of a team that requires solid drafting.

As for Phillips and Guthrie, Wedge took Ramon Vasquez over Brandon Phillips stating that he thought a veteran would fit the role he need better. Wedge has stated that he told Shapiro to keep Vasquez over Phillips. Guthrie...I attribute that to coaching and lack of chances to make in the MLB.

AndreMiller2424 said:

I didn't dismiss any blame ayway from Shapiro. I think he shares a lot of blame for mis-managing the draft in the years he's been here, but he also deserves a lot of credit for some of his other moves.

Also, I don't know the inner-workings of the Indians front office, but I highly, highly doubt Wedge has any say in the draft process. That is the responsbility of Shapiro, Antoinetti, scouts, and others in the F.O.

Re: Phillips and Guthrie. Don't group Garko in this group for 2 reasons. 1) Garko was not a complete bust in Cleveland. 2) For Phillips and Guthrie, we're using hindsight to support the idea that Wedge screwed up. Garko has no excelled with the Giants, so we don't know if he will be anything more than he was in Cleveland.

I'm not quite understanding your last point about Shapiro being promoted. What is the position above GM? Unless I'm not sensing sarcasm or whatever.

Click to expand...

Team President

Amherstcavsfan said:

Shapiro should be President and Antonetti GM, as I don't think Shapiro is cut out for entirely to be a great General Manager of a team that requires solid drafting.

As for Phillips and Guthrie, Wedge took Ramon Vasquez over Brandon Phillips stating that he thought a veteran would fit the role he need better. Wedge has stated that he told Shapiro to keep Vasquez over Phillips. Guthrie...I attribute that to coaching and lack of chances to make in the MLB.

Click to expand...

On some level, I agree, I didn't want a young guy like Phillips in a UTL role.. HOWEVER, Phillips should've started..

Garko was probably my favorite Indian of the past few years. I know he wasn't the most talented guy on the field but he played with emotion and reminds me of the player I am on the field. Actually, he's pretty much the mirror image of me. Same position and everything. I mean, the dude is one of the few brave enough to still roll up the pant legs and wear rock the sock. That is rare to see in baseball nowadays.

I'm not going to say I didn't see this coming though. Everyone knew that a first basemen was on the move and Garko was just the odd man out. I wish him luck with the Giants. I'd like to see him try an get an actual starting job and not the circus he was apart of with the Tribe.