Dion Waiters Traded

[Pioneer10]

Re: 17th Pick - Tyler Zeller

I think Dion and Kyrie will work well together. Kyrie is a dead eye shooter for a PG and if Dion handles the ball and let Kyrie play off of it during the game, it just makes both a lethal combination. Kyrie will open up lanes for Dion and Dion will get Kyrie open looks. And both can penetrate at will which will definitely disrupt the other teams defense. I hope the back court works out and if it does, daaaayyyyeeeemmmm!!!!!

I agree: Kyrie is such a good scorer that I think it will make sense to make him operate like a SG (or primary wing scorer if you like) at times. In these scenarios, you can have someone else initiate the offense and bring the ball up to save his energy. In addition, defenses will have to complicate there defensive gameplans to match up with him being off the ball and coming off screens. Unlike Lebron, Kyrie has the the ability to catch and shoot that we don't have to go to a KiISO version of LeIso even in crucial possesions.

 

[mcfly]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Statistically speaking, how did Isiah and Joe D work so well together? I will admit that my memories of their playing days are not the clearest at this point, but I always thought Isiah was a better shooter from deep. I really think that the effectiveness of Irving and Waiters will benefit more from Kyrie being such a dynamic player as opposed to Waiters's ability to adapt to off the ball play.

 

[RikSmits]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Statistically speaking, how did Isiah and Joe D work so well together? I will admit that my memories of their playing days are not the clearest at this point, but I always thought Isiah was a better shooter from deep. I really think that the effectiveness of Irving and Waiters will benefit more from Kyrie being such a dynamic player as opposed to Waiters's ability to adapt to off the ball play.

Dumars was the better shooter from deep, and a good catch-and-shoot player, IIRC.

But what made them so good is that they were focused on complementing each other and their teammates. They were busy with making the team better, without worrying about individual stats. Just my opinion.

 

[RedBlackAttack]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Dumars was the better shooter from deep, and a good catch-and-shoot player, IIRC.

But what made them so good is that they were focused on complementing each other and their teammates. They were busy with making the team better, without worrying about individual stats. Just my opinion.

Right. In fact, you go back and look at Isiah's numbers from their championship seasons and -- just based on the numbers alone -- you wouldn't guess that he was arguably the best PG in the game at that time and undeniably one of the game's best players.

1989 - 18 points (46% FG), 8 assists, 4 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 3.7 turnovers
1990 - 18 points (44% FG), 9 assists, 4 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 4 turnovers

Joe Dumars also wasn't putting up mind-blowing numbers...

1989 - 17 points (50.5% FG), 6 assists, 3 rebounds, 0.9 steals, 2.6 turnovers
1990 - 18 points (48% FG), 5 assists, 3 rebounds, 0.8 steals, 2 turnovers

Individual numbers were never something those 80s Pistons teams prided themselves on or really seemed to worry about. FWIW, I couldn't stand them back then, but I respect what they did in retrospect... A true team.

 

[JawJuttinAsasin]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Right. In fact, you go back and look at Isiah's numbers from their championship seasons and -- just based on the numbers alone -- you wouldn't guess that he was arguably the best PG in the game at that time and undeniably one of the game's best players.

Maybe those assertions are not actually true. It does not seem that Isiah was deferring and maximizing team efficiency given his high usage and low TS%.

 

[RedBlackAttack]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Maybe those assertions are not actually true. It does not seem that Isiah was deferring and maximizing team efficiency given his high usage and low TS%.

All I know is that, watching him play back then, it didn't seem like his status amongst the league's best was ever a question. He was just a damn good player.

Also, as that team got better and better, his statistics took a hit. He was averaging 21 points and 14 assists for an entire season earlier in his career.

Sometimes, numbers just aren't the be-all, end-all barometer of a player's effectiveness... Whether they are your basic stats or advanced. There are some guys that you had to watch to really know their greatness.

 

[CleveRocks]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

I think the thing that stands out to me the most about that Detroit team was the way those two played so easily off each other. The team defense was excellent, and the team offense was better. So yeah the stats may not show that, but the success of the team is evidence enough.

 

[Lumthemad]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Isiah Thomas was and is by far my most favorite player to ever play the NBA game. Prior to the championship era of the Pistons Isiah's statistics were better but the Pistons were not winning. It wasn't until he deferred more and played more of a team game that they began winning a lot of games. Where he was great is when the game was on the line. The dude was a cold blooded killer in those moments, which brings me to Kyrie and why he reminds me a WHOLE bunch of Isiah.

If Irving (who's got just as much talent as Isiah) and Dion (who could easily become a solid number 2) pan out like we all hope, we could have a very strong team for many seasons. We just need to add additional quality depth!

 

[Jon]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Also of note was that the big breakthrough for the Pistons seemed to come when they traded the Adrian Dantley for Mark Aguirre. Dantley had been the team's offensive leader in PPG, PER, TS%, etc, and they traded him for Mark Aguirre. More minutes for Rodman and hence better defense and rebounding was just one of the indirect benefits of that deal.

Those Pistons teams were certainly good enough on offense - and that's how a PG should be judged - how well he runs the team as opposed to individual stats ... but where they excelled was on defense.

 

[Lumthemad]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Also of note was that the big breakthrough for the Pistons seemed to come when they traded the Adrian Dantley for Mark Aguirre. Dantley had been the team's offensive leader in PPG, PER, TS%, etc, and they traded him for Mark Aguirre. More minutes for Rodman and hence better defense and rebounding was just one of the indirect benefits of that deal.

Those Pistons teams were certainly good enough on offense - and that's how a PG should be judged - how well he runs the team as opposed to individual stats ... but where they excelled was on defense.

One of the most amazing things to me about the Pistons is how Chuck Daly helped change the culture of that team from being very high scoring (the Thomas and Tripucka era) to one of elite defense. Also to trade a player like Dantley for a guy like Aguirre and have Mark just take on a role was another part of series of all the right moves. Aguirre was still a pretty big scorer prior to that move and had himself a bit of a large ego. I think ultimately though, that was way AD was moved...because he wouldn't supplant his ego and defer to the team values.

 

[narbar32]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Jesus... How did this thread become a circle jerk over the Bad Boys? Can we resume talking about how fat and/or skinny Dion looks?

 

[Jon]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Jesus... How did this thread become a circle jerk over the Bad Boys? Can we resume talking about how fat and/or skinny Dion looks?

Because Dion Waiters fits the mold of a Joe Dumars or Vinnie Johnson, and McFly asked the question how Isiah and Joe fit together thinking it might tell us something about how Kyrie and Dion might. I don't suspect this line of thought to go away anytime soon - especially with DG's Detroit connection.

 

[narbar32]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Because Dion Waiters fits the mold of a Joe Dumars or Vinnie Johnson, and McFly asked the question how Isiah and Joe fit together thinking it might tell us something about how Kyrie and Dion might. I don't suspect this line of thought to go away anytime soon - especially with DG's Detroit connection.

Damn it, Jon. Never one to ignore even a rhetorical question...

(My tongue display is meant to convey the lightheartedness of my jab, fyi)

Anyways, you have inadvertently touched on one of the concerns with Dion. The Isiah-Dumars duo was originally harped upon to masturbatory levels on this forum when we were discussing Beal's, not Dion's, potential fit next to Kyrie. But is Dion more Vinnie Johnson than Joe Dumars? Again, rhetorical, as it can't be accurately answered at this point. But Dion's role at 'Cuse, the rather on/off scorer's mentality we saw in college and in the very brief look at him we got in the Summer League, and his to-this-point demonstrated need for the ball in his hands to have any sort of impact offensively lend credence to the worry that he's our future 6th man, not starting SG.

None of these thoughts are even remotely novel, but I've had it with the Detroit-themed elephant walk in here and I'm trying to bring it back to a more Dion-focused spank-session.

Edit: I've just posted three comments in about a half hour, having not been back to the forums for a few days, and all three comments have referenced beating off in some way or another. Weird. My bad.

 

[Henry Tuttle]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

I went back to find a comment I made about a month before the draft about Waiters/Dumars/Gilbert to toot my own horn, but this turned out to be better...

 

[RikSmits]

Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Jesus... How did this thread become a circle jerk over the Bad Boys? Can we resume talking about how fat and/or skinny Dion looks?

He looks as fat as Mark Aguirre and as skinny as John Salley.