2020 Around the MLB Thread

[xmasbuck]

Unless I'm mistaken, if he had just dumped 323 million into an S&P index fund and left there since 2000 it would be worth 1 billion now. So the gain isn't quite that impressive IMO.

assuming you reinvested your earnings and bought in June 2000mit would be worth 1.4b or so - but us plebians are okay with passing on 300m for the the joy of owning the tribe

btw, we're assuming Dolan had the 323m in pocket and didn't have to finance some or work out other deals - working in his daddy's law firm was comfy and profitable but not 323m profitable ill bet

 

[MadThinker88]

Some things die hard Marty - and getting called names constantly because you have a different opinion is one of them.

Respectful discussion - I'm all in. Name calling and the like - I'll pass.

I completely agree with you on those aspects Jup..
That said I think the biggest name callers were the Troll & his puppet accounts..

Things are much better over here, even if your opinion does not match others (like with the labor discords)..

 

[CATS44]

Contrasting reports on Verlander, so no conclusions to be drawn yet. But the best case scenario for a pitcher his age is a mild forearm strain, which ain't good.

Funny, I never saw anybody predict that Kluber would start the season with tightness in the back of his shoulder, but now we have somebody crowing about it.

Kluber may have had the best six year run of any Tribe pitcher in the last 100 years. (Just think about the names) And the highest compliment Tito, the FO, and the development folks can think of to give a young pitcher is to compare the kid to Kluber.

But we still have a handful of folks who denigrate him constantly, while championing a somebody who cant come close to Kluber in production, consistency, dependability, team leadership, and character.

 

[Gson]

Contrasting reports on Verlander, so no conclusions to be drawn yet. But the best case scenario for a pitcher his age is a mild forearm strain, which ain't good.

Funny, I never saw anybody predict that Kluber would start the season with tightness in the back of his shoulder, but now we have somebody crowing about it.

Kluber may have had the best six year run of any Tribe pitcher in the last 100 years. (Just think about the names) And the highest compliment Tito, the FO, and the development folks can think of to give a young pitcher is to compare the kid to Kluber.

But we still have a handful of folks who denigrate him constantly, while championing a somebody who cant come close to Kluber in production, consistency, dependability, team leadership, and character.

Verlander to be shut down for two weeks.. clearly not good news..

 

[Gson]

BTW - The ChiSox rotation & bullpen was absolutely smashed to bits by the Twins this weekend..

Not really sure who/ what the ChiSox have left for visiting Cleveland staring on Monday...

Slated:
Aaron Civale faces Dylan Cease on Monday
Zach Plesac gets Carlos Rodon on Tuesday &
Shane Bieber has a "fresh" Lucas Giolito Wednesday..

Solid matchups.. our young guys versus more of the CWS young guys..

Thoughts?

 

[Otsego Mar]

I loved Kluber and what he did for the Tribe, but if we can rewind the IBI “tapes”, I thought he was probably done. That said, I hope nobody relishes his regression and possible demise. I do not, even if it makes me somewhat “correct”.

Why do you new guys talk about irritable bowel syndrome so much?

 

[Gson]

Not exactly happy Verlander got injured but I am thinking karma is probably involved...

Question remains who is next: Altuve? Springer? Correa? Bregman??

The Stros have a couple of guys who they can plug in..but Verlander is going to be a HUGE loss, regardless.. The Stros may be able to survive and make it to the playoffs..but will need a "boost" if they hope to advance.. A team with excess starting pitching could possibly exploit that situation..

 

[Gson]

Did not see it, but like it in concept.

Bauer wore a big shyte eating grin after the fact.. clearly his sense of humor was on full display.. Great to see..

 

[jup]

Contrasting reports on Verlander, so no conclusions to be drawn yet. But the best case scenario for a pitcher his age is a mild forearm strain, which ain't good.

Funny, I never saw anybody predict that Kluber would start the season with tightness in the back of his shoulder, but now we have somebody crowing about it.

Kluber may have had the best six year run of any Tribe pitcher in the last 100 years. (Just think about the names) And the highest compliment Tito, the FO, and the development folks can think of to give a young pitcher is to compare the kid to Kluber.

But we still have a handful of folks who denigrate him constantly, while championing a somebody who cant come close to Kluber in production, consistency, dependability, team leadership, and character.

Stop it right there CATS.

I posted that Kluber had a shoulder problem and that was at the root of his late in the season swoon and his '18 ALDS start that was so lame. I posted straight up that it was the AC joint in his shoulder.

Don't give me this "handful of folks who denigrate him constantly" crap.

He should have never gone - he was hurt, was unwilling to tell management he shouldn't go and it turned out to be a disaster for the rest of the players on the team. Francona knew he was hurt but went ahead and started him on his word anyway. The trainers had been all over him trying to get him right, it wasn't any hidden secret.

QUIT with all this inuendo stuff. Just be man enough to come out and say it was JUP, CATS, instead of all this cloak and dagger - Somebody or Handful of Folks or .... I am right here CATS. You know my screen name - it is JUP in case you have forgotten. Address it right to me.

I posted he was having shoulder problems in '19 (during the time his results were poor and his velocity was waning) before he took the line drive that broke his arm. I posted that the layoff might give him a chance to get his shoulder right when he went on the IL. So don't give me this PREDICTION ABOUT '20 crap.

 

[jup]

Bauer wore a big shyte eating grin after the fact.. clearly his sense of humor was on full display.. Great to see..

Was nice to see, he seems happy in Cincy.

Trevor Bauer on pretending to throw the ball to CF when he was being taken out of Sunday's game: "I get worn out about it a lot. ... I figured I’d give the trolls something to chew on." #Reds

 

[LL3]

Why do you new guys talk about irritable bowel syndrome so much?

You need to buy a different consonant

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

@The Human Q-Tip

I am siding with @Derek on this argument, but i am looking at it this way.

NBA honestly is watched around the world and basketball is a world sport. They have fans all over the world. Most casual fans can name the best players in the league and the NBA (almost to much) promotes these players and many people know them.

NFL, now they arent a world sport, but you can watch around 12 if not more of the games per season on free TV (just antenna or on NFL.com) as long as enough tickets are sold. So you have access without paying much to be able to watch most of the games. Plus they promote players as well. Guys like Burrows (who hasn't even had an NFL snap) has already sold more jerseys than likely Roberto Perez has and he has been on the tribe the longest.

MLB, does not promote its players (maybe it stems from the history of baseball, but they need to change things with this). How many guys can you name that arent on the Indians? Can you name the AL Leader in HRs in 19? Can you explain why the Marlins are looking to lock up 3B Brian Anderson to an extension? Can you tell me why Bryan Reynolds could compete for a batting title? Most people cannot even tell me who those guys are let alone tell me anything about them.

Also in my mind, they arent changing with the people's lifestyles. You need cable/satellite if you don't have mlb.tv, to watch baseball gamss at home. With the decline in subscriptions to cable/satellite and the big increase to Netflix and other options like that, there is less and less people that have access to your teams games. Turner, who owned the Braves, always wanted his team on a regular TV so everyone could watch them, not just the local people. I saw more Braves games than Indians games growing up in Canton. I often could only watch the replay cause Time Warner Cable blacked out a lot of the games. I became a fan of baseball because of the Braves and my dad, not because of the Indians since I never got to watch them.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the economics and whatnot of baseball, but with what @Derek was saying, they arent being smart since they arent adjusting to the times. Some places have 4 or more teams blackout even with MLB.tv subscription. They cannot watch any of those games live cause of the location (I will not be able to watch 50% of the Indians games this season because of the local blackouts and i am not even in Ohio) if you have an MLB.tv subscription, you cannot watch any Indians live games if you are in Ohio, and some parts of Pennsylvania. Isnt that what an MLB.tv subscription is for, to be able to watch baseball games? Its useless in a local area and it costs what at least 100 a month if not more a month to get STO. So do you want to spend that much for one station/to be able to watch the local sports team?

Also in some areas, like other posters stated, they have a bunch of teams blocked but they are states away from any pro team, how does that make sense to bring in fans without the ability to watch a team. If I could only watch the Braves, I would be a Braves fan, but a fan nonetheless, but if i cannot watch any team without paying 100 a month, why would i become a fan? You just lost any who could be a casual fan for baseball. You need more than diehards to make a business that large successful.

Derek essentially just wants a way through MLB itself to be able to watch games (even with a fee) without blackouts in the local area. We arent saying for free, just an option to watch the team without blackouts. Also it is something Trevor Bauer complained about in his off season rant, so the players feel the same way as Derek feels about the situation.

First, for reasons completely unrelated to what we were previously discussing, I think Derek has a valid point about owners being dumb.

But second...I question how easy it really is to market individual baseball players. The sport that does the best job marketing individuals is the NBA -- it is an individual-athlete driven league to a large extent. But look at the difference in the games themselves -- in basketball, fans and cameras are much closer to the game. Players don't wear hats or anything, so everyone knows exactly what they all look like in closeups during games. Then there are only 5 guys on the court at any one time, so the individual players have more of a chance to stand out. Perhaps most importantly, the nature of the game itself allows for far more creativity/highlight plays that can be appreciated even by someone who knows very little about the game. You don't have to know nuance to know that an LBJ chase-down block is exceptional. And the nature of the game permits players to show a lot of individuality/personality in their play style. Even if LBJ loses or has a (for him) bad game, he's still going to be doing things on individual plays that make you go "wow". And that's because he'll have 80 or so different possession on which to demonstrate his personality/greatness.

Baseball is much tougher. Fans and cameras are much further away, so you don't have that intimacy you get with basketball. But most importantly, the sport itself gives much less room for individual expression than basketball. There are only so many ways to stand in the batters box, swing the bat, do a windup, etc.. Seen one...you've kind of seen them all, Hideo Nomo aside.

In general, the difference between the greats and the bums may be that a bum fails 7 times out of 10, and a great only fails 6 times out of 10. That's not something easily marketable to people who aren't students of the game. And unlike basketball, where the individual players you are marketing are almost constantly active...most baseball players spend most of the game simply standing there. On offense, all but 1 are sitting in the bullpen doing nothing useful. In the field, most of them are standing there or running to the appropriate position when the ball is it.. But there's nothing interesting on an individual level about watching Lindor cover third, because he does it pretty much like everyone else.

You do get the very occasional spectacular play in the field -- think Lofton robbing someone of a home run -- but even the greats make those catches very rarely because there are so few opportunities. If you tune in to watch LBJ with a great dunk, you're very likely going to see one. If you're tuning in to watch Lofton make a spectacular catch...odds are you're going to be disappointed. And offensively....instead of the 80 or so possessions a game a great player will get in the NBA, an MLB player only gets 4-5 AB's a game. That's just much less of an opportunity for that individual to pull in fans who want to watch him. So if you're tuning in because you've heard about Mike Trout...you're likely to see a game that is objectively rather ordinary. It's the consistency over time that makes him special...but that's not exactly a sexy marketing pitch.

Baseball has tried -- they had success marketing in the 'roid era with McGuire and Sosa, but that's because they were literally doing something folks had never seen before. I just don't know how you can replicate that with most players.

Thing is...every team has professional marketing people. The league itself has professional marketing people. And they all hire outside consultants at various times, all of who are likely familiar with how the NBA markets players, etc.. So you'd think that if there was a code for cracking how to market MLB players like NBA players, someone would have figured it out, and the template would be repeated by other teams. The fact that it hasn't happened suggests to me that there aren't any easy answers, and that it is much more difficult than casual fans may believe.

 

[jup]

First, for reasons completely unrelated to what we were previously discussing, I think Derek has a valid point about owners being dumb.

But second...I question how easy it really is to market individual baseball players. The sport that does the best job marketing individuals is the NBA -- it is an individual-athlete driven league to a large extent. But look at the difference in the games themselves -- in basketball, fans and cameras are much closer to the game. Players don't wear hats or anything, so everyone knows exactly what they all look like in closeups during games. Then there are only 5 guys on the court at any one time, so the individual players have more of a chance to stand out. Perhaps most importantly, the nature of the game itself allows for far more creativity/highlight plays that can be appreciated even by someone who knows very little about the game. You don't have to know nuance to know that an LBJ chase-down block is exceptional. And the nature of the game permits players to show a lot of individuality/personality in their play style. Even if LBJ loses or has a (for him) bad game, he's still going to be doing things on individual plays that make you go "wow". And that's because he'll have 80 or so different possession on which to demonstrate his personality/greatness.

Baseball is much tougher. Fans and cameras are much further away, so you don't have that intimacy you get with basketball. But most importantly, the sport itself gives much less room for individual expression than basketball. There are only so many ways to stand in the batters box, swing the bat, do a windup, etc.. Seen one...you've kind of seen them all, Hideo Nomo aside.

In general, the difference between the greats and the bums may be that a bum fails 7 times out of 10, and a great only fails 6 times out of 10. That's not something easily marketable to people who aren't students of the game. And unlike basketball, where the individual players you are marketing are almost constantly active...most baseball players spend most of the game simply standing there. On offense, all but 1 are sitting in the bullpen doing nothing useful. In the field, most of them are standing there or running to the appropriate position when the ball is it.. But there's nothing interesting on an individual level about watching Lindor cover third, because he does it pretty much like everyone else.

ou get the very occasional spectacular play in the field -- think Lofton robbing someone of a home run -- but even the greats make those catches very rarely because there are so few opportunities. If you tune in to watch LBJ with a great dunk, you're very likely going to see one. If you're tuning in to watch Lofton make a spectacular catch...odds are you're going to be disappointed. And offensively....instead of the 80 or so possessions a game a great player will get in the NBA, an MLB player only gets 4-5 AB's a game. That's just much less of an opportunity for that individual to pull in fans who want to watch him. So if you're tuning in because you've heard about Mike Trout...you're likely to see a game that is objectively rather ordinary. It's the consistency over time that makes him special...but that's not exactly a sexy marketing pitch.

Baseball has tried -- they had success marketing in the 'roid era with McGuire and Sosa, but that's because they were literally doing something folks had never seen before. I just don't know how you can replicate that with most players.

Thing is...every team has professional marketing people. The league itself has professional marketing people. And they all hire outside consultants ant various times, all of who are likely familiar with how the NBA markets players, etc.. So you'd think that if there was a code for cracking how to market MLB players like NBA players, someone would have figured it out, and the template would be repeated by other teams. The fact that it hasn't happened suggests to me that there aren't any easy answers, and that it is much more difficult that casual fans may believe.

You market them to niche audiences on social media. You market them by lifestyle and personality. And the sum of the total of all the niche audiences makes a bigger pie than trying to market them top down like the face of the league.

Talked (a few years back) to the people that developed the "let the kids play" commercials for MLB that were so hot that MLB brought them back for more. They understand social media very well. Integrated much of what they have learned through social into the ad campaign. Biggest success MLB has had in a very long time.

So baseball has tried and just aren't good at it at all. In fact they are a horrible failure. Because they have been so stuck in their ways about letting players personality show through on the field. You get about thirty seconds with kids this day and age at most, you have to grab their attention within that span.

Awesome bat flips on Monster home runs

Pitchers screaming at the top of their lungs and pumping their fists when they K somebody at 100mph.

That is what catches their attention on social media feeds. And then they follow and become fans. But when you suppress the very thing that would grab kids attention, they follow other sports that grab them first. And if you don't get to them first, you have an uphill battle to try and get them to switch.

White Sox Tim Anderson had a huge following from his bat flips. People still follow Bauer because he threw the ball over the center field wall. You have to create a buzz. But old timers (like CATS) think the game has to be played in the stoic fashion like at the turn of last century (I am talking 1900 not 2000). Doesn't work today. Why do you think Mr. BlueHair has blue hair and chains all around his neck - go ask Frankie and see if it builds a following. Not many years back none of that would have been allowed. Baseball tradition is its own worst enemy and the people that broadcast it, that are constantly denigrating the players (especially the color guys who are mostly x players) are one of the huge problems.

 

[LL3]

Old school, “unwritten rules” are an enormous drag on baseball. Bat flips and fist pumps should be no big deal, perhaps even featured...I am no fan of verbal taunting...and throwing at guys is just never a good thing.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

You market them to niche audiences on social media. You market them by lifestyle and personality.

But how, exactly? To market someone by lifestyle and personality, they must either 1) have so much attention drawn to them for other reasons that people care about their lifestyle/personality, or 2) their lifestyle and personality themselves are so interesting that even non-fans want to follow them. 2) is the route that, for example, the Kardashians took. Baseball players would be 1). But I just don't see how you get ordinary people so interested in the lifestyles and personalities of baseball players that they'll actually watch the games.

So baseball has tried and just aren't good at it at all. In fact they are a horrible failure. Because they have been so stuck in their ways about letting players personality show through on the field.

Exactly how do you do that in a significant way? The very nature of baseball simply doesn't give nearly as many opportunities for that kind of thing as does basketball or football. It's a more sedate game in terms of the game itself.

Awesome bat flips on Monster home runs. Pitchers screaming at the top of their lungs and pumping their fists when they K somebody at 100mph.

I just don't see that moving the needle very much in terms of fan interest in watching games.

White Sox Tim Anderson had a huge following from his bat flips. People still follow Bauer because he threw the ball over the center field wall. You have to create a buzz. But old timers (like CATS) think the game has to be played in the stoic fashion like at the turn of last century (I am talking 1900 not 2000). Doesn't work today. Why do you think Mr. BlueHair has blue hair and chains all around his neck - go ask Frankie and see if it builds a following. Not many years back none of that would have been allowed. Baseball tradition is its own worst enemy and the people that broadcast it, that are constantly denigrating the players (especially the color guys who are mostly x players) are one of the huge problems.

Baseball doesn't need social media followers -- It needs fans to go to the games or watch them regularly on TV. The kind of stuff you're describing might help an individual player build a niche instagram following. I don't think it makes more people actually watch baseball. Why should they? They can just get the bat flips on their social media feeds, and skip the boring (to them...) games.

ETA: And there's no need to take gratuitous shots at another poster who isn't in this conversation.