2024 Guardians Regular Season Thread

[MirORich]

This discussion happened last year though and people were absolutely tag team laying it on the poster who said that Bieber and TMac shouldn't be relied on. I don't think it was absolutely predictable per se but it's a pretty good rule not to lean on injured guys.

So what’s the proposal?

Guys like Cookie and Lively were brought in for the very reason of need for backup. Guys like Curry continue to be developed and believed in.

Say in a scenario where you kept Civale, what’s your move? A 6 man rotation until an injury. Trading Bieber or McKenzie?

All I’m saying is that simply holding on to Civale and expecting one of Bieber, McKenizie, Civale, Bibee, Allen, and Williams to be cool being the emergency guy who only starts if someone else is injured doesn’t seem very smart either.

 

[Tondo]

The FO has done a pretty amazing job of adding ML ready pitching depth to the org for basically free.

Carrasco, Lively, Barria, Z. Kent, Strzelecki, Parsons, Avila

We have the depth to patch together the innings and most importantly, we have a new coaching staff who operates this way (like Tampa) instead of stubbornly relying on set roles. We'll need everyone of those arms to cover innings.

 

[KluberSociety]

So what’s the proposal?

Guys like Cookie and Lively were brought in for the very reason of need for backup. Guys like Curry continue to be developed and believed in.

Say in a scenario where you kept Civale, what’s your move? A 6 man rotation until an injury. Trading Bieber or McKenzie?

All I’m saying is that simply holding on to Civale and expecting one of Bieber, McKenizie, Civale, Bibee, Allen, and Williams to be cool being the emergency guy who only starts if someone else is injured doesn’t seem very smart either.

This is how pitching works on successful teams. Most of the time you won't even have 6/6 healthy at the same time, especially considering that 3 of them were Bieber, TMac, and Civale.

And yeah in those rare cases the worst performing starting pitcher generally goes to the pen.

 

[MirORich]

This is how pitching works on successful teams. Most of the time you won't even have 6/6 healthy at the same time, especially considering that 3 of them were Bieber, TMac, and Civale.

And yeah in those rare cases the worst performing starting pitcher generally goes to the pen.

But you also have priority guys and backup plan guys you have enough trust in to go to if need be. Or almost ready prospects you believe in who haven’t yet earned their stripes or shown they belong.

The six we’re talking about are all deserving and all proven to have legit MLB stuff. Telling one of them ahead of ST or the start of the regular seasons that they’re the odd man out and in waiting until an injury happens feels off to me. How many teams do that to guys as talented as the 6 we’re discussing? Maybe my take on it is naive or not the right one, idk

Not only that, but other than some select stretches, has Civale ever given THAT much more than what we’re getting from Carrasci or could get from Curry? And, he’s had his own injury issues as well. They chose to trade him at peak value for a top100 prospect who’s almost ready to land while feeling good about the remaining five and feeling good about their emergency options(like Carrasco, Lively, Curry). Knowing also they have a prospect backlog of middle infielders to make a move for a pitcher if things truly got out of hand

There’s of course very valid elements to your point/prefernce, but I’m comfortable with what they chose to do and why they chose to do it in regards to Civale, Bieber and the rest of their starting pitching

 

[CalBuckeyeRob]

Tampa did something to really increase the strikeout numbers for Civale. He had 58 in 77 innings in Cleveland last year and 58 in 45 innings in Tampa. Yet his hits went way up in Tampa at the same time last season. I would make that same trade every day. My only concern is Jake Bauers looked like a prospect that would hit and Tampa moved him and he was awful. So maybe they see problems with Manzardo that most prospect evaluators do not.

 

[KluberSociety]

But you also have priority guys and backup plan guys you have enough trust in to go to if need be. Or almost ready prospects you believe in who haven’t yet earned their stripes or shown they belong.

The six we’re talking about are all deserving and all proven to have legit MLB stuff. Telling one of them ahead of ST or the start of the regular seasons that they’re the odd man out and in waiting until an injury happens feels off to me. How many teams do that to guys as talented as the 6 we’re discussing? Maybe my take on it is naive or not the right one, idk

Not only that, but other than some select stretches, has Civale ever given THAT much more than what we’re getting from Carrasci or could get from Curry? And, he’s had his own injury issues as well. They chose to trade him at peak value for a top100 prospect who’s almost ready to land while feeling good about the remaining five and feeling good about their emergency options(like Carrasco, Lively, Curry). Knowing also they have a prospect backlog of middle infielders to make a move for a pitcher if things truly got out of hand

There’s of course very valid elements to your point/prefernce, but I’m comfortable with what they chose to do and why they chose to do it in regards to Civale, Bieber and the rest of their starting pitching

Seems like a lot of worrying about a situation that isn't likely to happen and when it does, is a blessing.

I'm happy we got guys like Carrasco and Lively for cheap for backup but yes I do think they are that much behind Civale. I guess we will see in a few months how we feel about the dumpster dive rotation.

 

[Criznit]

Returned rule 5 draft pick Deyvision De La Santos's current line in AA. He has 2-doubles, 1-triple and 3 homers against 4BB 16K in 48PAs.

.341

.396

.636

1.032

 

[CDAV45]

Man, that Civale trade looks more and more suspect every day. Trading a solid Starting Pitcher with Biebers and Mckenzies injury history just never felt like that right move to me, especially with the supposed injury epidemic we keep hearing about.

Until you see Manzardo raking in Cleveland. I think it was an outstanding move, but that might just be me.

 

[Alabuckeye]

Aaron civale has only hit 120ip in a season twice. not sure that’s a dependable arm.

 

[MD13]

Man, that Civale trade looks more and more suspect every day. Trading a solid Starting Pitcher with Biebers and Mckenzies injury history just never felt like that right move to me, especially with the supposed injury epidemic we keep hearing about.

I disagree, I think it just makes it more of a smart move, given the way pitching injuries have skyrocketed and how Civale has never hit 130 IP due to an array of injuries.

Pitching assets are probably devalued a bit across the MLB, so when you have the option to get back a premium asset for one, you should do it. Especially given the Guardians org background where we can get and coach up quality depth from off the scrap heap.

 

[CDAV45]

The FO has done a pretty amazing job of adding ML ready pitching depth to the org for basically free.

Carrasco, Lively, Barria, Z. Kent, Strzelecki, Parsons, Avila

We have the depth to patch together the innings and most importantly, we have a new coaching staff who operates this way (like Tampa) instead of stubbornly relying on set roles. We'll need everyone of those arms to cover innings.

I'm still curious about Barria. I like his stuff better than all those listed, but he obviously needs to control it better. Everything he throws moves a lot.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

OK, setting the Civale debate aside momentarily and getting back to 2024, I've noticed a huge difference between Tito and Vogt. Tito was extremely loyal to his veterans. No matter how bad they were slumping he kept them in their roles. His main priority was to show he believed in them, counting on that faith to help them work their way out of it.

Vogt is moving pieces all over the place. For example, Gimenez has batted 1st, 2nd, 6th and 7th. Jose is bouncing back-and-forth between hitting 2nd and 3rd. Arias has started at 3B, SS, and CF while also playing 1B and RF. Fry has started at C, 1B, and LF. Bo Naylor has hit in five different spots in the batting order.

Gaddis has gone from the last guy in the bullpen to pitching the 8th inning today in three weeks. Smith is getting higher leverage assignments. Vogt said Clase is the closer but nobody else has a role; they need to be ready to pitch in any inning depending on who is coming up to bat. Nobody is designated to be a middle reliever or a set-up man. It's all about getting the best matchups regardless of the inning.

Tito believed in everybody having a defined role or a stable spot in the batting order so they could get comfortable. Vogt is a chess master - he moves guys all over the place. He said the batting order is set up to beat that day's starting pitcher, as opposed to each player having a permanent spot that does not vary from day to day.

I love Vogt's approach. He brings in the right relief pitcher for the situation, not the inning. He tweaks the batting order every game based on the strengths and weaknesses of the opposing pitcher. It's working and I love it.

 

[bushwick_bill]

 

[thestatman]

OK, setting the Civale debate aside momentarily and getting back to 2024, I've noticed a huge difference between Tito and Vogt. Tito was extremely loyal to his veterans. No matter how bad they were slumping he kept them in their roles. His main priority was to show he believed in them, counting on that faith to help them work their way out of it.

Vogt is moving pieces all over the place. For example, Gimenez has batted 1st, 2nd, 6th and 7th. Jose is bouncing back-and-forth between hitting 2nd and 3rd. Arias has started at 3B, SS, and CF while also playing 1B and RF. Fry has started at C, 1B, and LF. Bo Naylor has hit in five different spots in the batting order.

Gaddis has gone from the last guy in the bullpen to pitching the 8th inning today in three weeks. Smith is getting higher leverage assignments. Vogt said Clase is the closer but nobody else has a role; they need to be ready to pitch in any inning depending on who is coming up to bat. Nobody is designated to be a middle reliever or a set-up man. It's all about getting the best matchups regardless of the inning.

Tito believed in everybody having a defined role or a stable spot in the batting order so they could get comfortable. Vogt is a chess master - he moves guys all over the place. He said the batting order is set up to beat that day's starting pitcher, as opposed to each player having a permanent spot that does not vary from day to day.

I love Vogt's approach. He brings in the right relief pitcher for the situation, not the inning. He tweaks the batting order every game based on the strengths and weaknesses of the opposing pitcher. It's working and I love it.

Tito also had the bs thought that if you warm up you have to come in. Vogt has sat down relievers at least 6 times this season after the lead was extended. How many times did Tito put Clase in with a 7-1 lead? No wonder the guy burned out. Vogt is also not afraid to pitch a reliever 2 innings. Once again Tito rarely did that.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

I thought Vogt would pinch hit for Laureano in the 8th with two out, Bo Naylor on first, and the Guardians up 5-4. The Red Sox had a right-hander on the mound. I thought Vogt would bring in Brennan or Florial or even Kwan to pinch hit. We could really use an insurance run and Laureano is hitting well under .200.

He didn't and Laureano struck out. Maybe if he pinch hit with Brennan or Florial the Sox would have brought in their third lefty. They already used two and had one left. But at least that would have got their last lefty out of the game if it went to extra innings.

I'm a Vogt fan but I would have pinch hit for Laureano. I wonder what his thinking on that was with three lefties available on the bench.