Jesus Christ Heals You

[Cratylus]

@The Oi
Now with respect to prayer, for me, as a somewhat weak agnostic; is more about introspection, meditation, and personal reflection rather than seeking a two-way conversation with an anthropomorphic deity.

THIS is the correct answer.

I make no bones about the fact that I am an atheist (actually, it would be more accurate to describe me as a theological noncognitivist). I don't believe God exists, but I certainly don't discount the possibility that he/it does. By the way, a theological noncognitivist is a person who holds that religious language is not cognitively meaningful. In other words, since the concepts that are described by religious language are not verifiable, or at the very least falsifiable in principle, they are essentially devoid of meaning. Moreover, the "definitions" of God include only negatively defined or relational attributes, and as such, don't really say anything about God. Ultimately a theological noncognitivist is somebody who awaits a consistent, coherent definition of the word "God" (or of any other metaphysical utterance purported to be discussable) before he is able to engage in arguments for or against God's existence.

Nonetheless, I have no quarrels with somebody who engages in meditative prayer. My issue is with the individual who believes in the efficacy of intercessory prayer. To believe that the Prime Mover is waiting on your beck and call to alter the ultimate path of the universe based on your wishes is the definition of sheer madness.

 

[The Oi]

THIS is the correct answer.

I make no bones about the fact that I am an atheist (actually, it would be more accurate to describe me as a theological noncognitivist). I don't believe God exists, but I certainly don't discount the possibility that he/it does. By the way, a theological noncognitivist is a person who holds that religious language is not cognitively meaningful. In other words, since the concepts that are described by religious language are not verifiable, or at the very least falsifiable in principle, they are essentially devoid of meaning. Moreover, the "definitions" of God include only negatively defined or relational attributes, and as such, don't really say anything about God. Ultimately a theological noncognitivist is somebody who awaits a consistent, coherent definition of the word "God" (or of any other metaphysical utterance purported to be discussable) before he is able to engage in arguments for or against God's existence.

Nonetheless, I have no quarrels with somebody who engages in meditative prayer. My issue is with the individual who believes in the efficacy of intercessory prayer. To believe that the Prime Mover is waiting on your beck and call to alter the ultimate path of the universe based on your wishes is the definition of sheer madness.

I have found that SOME people for whom prayer is a large part of their lives generally turn to prayer in very extreme situations. Or they come from very exteme situations, such as addiction or abusive situations. And for others, it's ingrained in them from their parents or surroundings.

Regardless of where it came from...I think it's a way for them to gain a semblance of control over a situation that otherwise controls them.

At some point in my life, I do not remember when...I accepted that I cannot really control just about ANYTHING. I have temper tantrums from time to time where I throw shit like a child when I lose control, or I snap at my wife and regret it instantly. That's my reaction to losing control.

I think where I have learned to let go of things, other people use prayer to try to gain control. God is an entity that helps people feel in control of their surroundings...or ironically, that SOMEONE ELSE is in control of their surroundings.

At least this is my understanding from having observed others explain why and when they pray and what they pray about.

And by the way...I'm not saying this to say that my "letting go" approach is any better than a religious-based prayer approach. I'm simply using it to compare what I feel is the opposite of prayer based on my observations.

 

[Cratylus]

I have found that SOME people for whom prayer is a large part of their lives generally turn to prayer in very extreme situations. Or they come from very exteme situations, such as addiction or abusive situations. And for others, it's ingrained in them from their parents or surroundings.

Regardless of where it came from...I think it's a way for them to gain a semblance of control over a situation that otherwise controls them.

At some point in my life, I do not remember when...I accepted that I cannot really control just about ANYTHING. I have temper tantrums from time to time where I throw shit like a child when I lose control, or I snap at my wife and regret it instantly. That's my reaction to losing control.

I think where I have learned to let go of things, other people use prayer to try to gain control. God is an entity that helps people feel in control of their surroundings...or ironically, that SOMEONE ELSE is in control of their surroundings.

At least this is my understanding from having observed others explain why and when they pray and what they pray about.

And by the way...I'm not saying this to say that my "letting go" approach is any better than a religious-based prayer approach. I'm simply using it to compare what I feel is the opposite of prayer based on my observations.

This is a great post.

Ultimately, I think I agree with you. All prayer seems to be about "control issues" for lack of a better term. The supplicant is essentially seeking a cathartic release with regards to situations that ultimately they have no control over (perhaps as a coping mechanism). One who uses intercessory prayer wants to have the situation changed to one of their own liking, whereas one who uses meditative prayer wants to have themselves changed either (a) to learn to accept things as they are and move forward with life, or (b) to become the kind of person who can enact the change they wish to see.

It's pretty obvious which one is the childish way of viewing the world, and which one is the mature way of viewing the world.

 

[The Oi]

This is a great post.

Ultimately, I think I agree with you. All prayer seems to be about "control issues" for lack of a better term. The supplicant is essentially seeking a cathartic release with regards to situations that ultimately they have no control over (perhaps as a coping mechanism). One who uses intercessory prayer wants to have the situation changed to one of their own liking, whereas one who uses meditative prayer wants to have themselves changed either (a) to learn to accept things as they are and move forward with life, or (b) to become the kind of person who can enact the change they wish to see.

It's pretty obvious which one is the childish way of viewing the world, and which one is the mature way of viewing the world.

I'm with you up until the last sentence.

I find it difficult to call someone "childish" who prays for their cancer afflicted two year old to be cured. Or a woman who is being raped repeatedly to pray for their accuser to stop raping her.

I can see value in intercessory prayer. I can understand why people do it and I sympathize with them in certain situations and I can see why they'd desperately need to believe that it's true.

I know what you mean when you say that it's childish. I just think that's not the right word for the situations of pure desperation that I described.

 

[Cratylus]

I'm with you up until the last sentence.

I find it difficult to call someone "childish" who prays for their cancer afflicted two year old to be cured. Or a woman who is being raped repeatedly to pray for their accuser to stop raping her.

I can see value in intercessory prayer. I can understand why people do it and I sympathize with them in certain situations and I can see why they'd desperately need to believe that it's true.

I know what you mean when you say that it's childish. I just think that's not the right word for the situations of pure desperation that I described.

No, I get the whole coping mechanism thing when you experience dire situations. I was referring more to the selfish kind of praying, like "God, please convince my boss to give me a raise because I'm falling behind on my bills".

Rather than "childish", perhaps a better word would have been "self-absorbed" or "egotistical".

 

[The Oi]

No, I get the whole coping mechanism thing when you experience dire situations. I was referring more to the selfish kind of praying, like "God, please convince my boss to give me a raise because I'm falling behind on my bills".

Rather than "childish", perhaps a better word would have been "self-absorbed" or "egotistical".

I read you.

Another issue I have with God is...exactly how much ground does this guy cover?

We know a lot more than the writers of the Bible and other holy books did...to say the least.

For example, we know that the universe stretches almost hilariously far. And there may even be other universes that exist.

Does he cover the other universes too? It's so frustrating how little those people knew.

 

[Cratylus]

I read you.

Another issue I have with God is...exactly how much ground does this guy cover?

We know a lot more than the writers of the Bible and other holy books did...to say the least.

For example, we know that the universe stretches almost hilariously far. And there may even be other universes that exist.

Does he cover the other universes too? It's so frustrating how little those people knew.

Well, that's one of the rubs for sure. It doesn't help the (in this case) Christians' cause when you have fundamentalists trying to read the Bible (and mainly the book of Genesis) as a sort of scientific primer when, in fact, it was never intended to be read as such. Yeah, it's telling to read some of the absurdities in the Bible (for instance, in Leviticus 11:13-19 God himself says that a bat is a type of bird). Passages like this can be used to demonstrate that either (a) the God of the Bible was a moron (and therefore not truly "God" as many pseudo-philosophical Christians would describe him), or (b) the people who claimed God told them this were lying.

But ultimately it comes down to this. It's one thing to say the Bible was inspired by God; it's another thing entirely to claim that the Bible is 100% accurate in every utterance it makes. One of those claims is demonstrably false; the other is unfalsifiable by its very nature.

 

[Adam]

One thing I find interesting is the athletes who are very religious and then retire and lose their faith. Idea being the religion has value for justifying events that our out of their control and so helps control the pressure

 

[The Oi]

One thing I find interesting is the athletes who are very religious and then retire and lose their faith. Idea being the religion has value for justifying events that our out of their control and so helps control the pressure

Right.

I'd venture to guess a lot of their pre-game superstitions go away when they retire as well.

Coincidence?

But then again...here this thread has turned to religion bashing.

Maybe we can turn this positive...

What do people think about compiling positive, non superstitious aspects from certain religions and creating their own code of ethics?

 

[BooyaCS]

Right.

I'd venture to guess a lot of their pre-game superstitions go away when they retire as well.

Coincidence?

But then again...here this thread has turned to religion bashing.

Maybe we can turn this positive...

What do people think about compiling positive, non superstitious aspects from certain religions and creating their own code of ethics?

The morality of the stories in the religious texts are compelling. Just as long as we remember they are only stories and not factual evidence.

So when Christ said love one another. Why is that a bad thing? The rest is very similar to other mythological stories that we look back on now as stories more so than true relgious texts. IE Greek Mythology, Roman, Egyptian. The flood stories in Sumaria, Epic of Gilgamesh, Greek, Roman, Egyptian etc.

Keep them as stories and fables of what happens when you are immoral and such. That is it. We should apply the same skeptical/free thinking thought to them as we would to any story we read/hear.

 

[David.]

Dont know many of the stories but Job is an inspirational one, even for an atheist

 

[The Process God]

There is a massive, atheist circle jerk going on right now in this thread.

 

[The Oi]

There is a massive, atheist circle jerk going on right now in this thread.

The floor in the Presidential election thread was getting a little too slippery, so we had to move it over here.

 

[ewizacft]

Anyways...you promised! So get your prayin ass on the job, you sonofabitch!!! Get me through to November. I don't believe in God or prayer, but I respect your dedication and greatly appreciate your consideration so I'll like one of your posts or something in return.

I have been praying for you before I even started this thread and will continue to do so in the future.

 

[ewizacft]

THIS is the correct answer.

I make no bones about the fact that I am an atheist (actually, it would be more accurate to describe me as a theological noncognitivist). I don't believe God exists, but I certainly don't discount the possibility that he/it does. By the way, a theological noncognitivist is a person who holds that religious language is not cognitively meaningful. In other words, since the concepts that are described by religious language are not verifiable, or at the very least falsifiable in principle, they are essentially devoid of meaning. Moreover, the "definitions" of God include only negatively defined or relational attributes, and as such, don't really say anything about God. Ultimately a theological noncognitivist is somebody who awaits a consistent, coherent definition of the word "God" (or of any other metaphysical utterance purported to be discussable) before he is able to engage in arguments for or against God's existence.

Nonetheless, I have no quarrels with somebody who engages in meditative prayer. My issue is with the individual who believes in the efficacy of intercessory prayer. To believe that the Prime Mover is waiting on your beck and call to alter the ultimate path of the universe based on your wishes is the definition of sheer madness.

I think it is great that you leave the possibility for the existence of God. What bothers me is that you then go on to rule out the efficacy of intercessory prayer. What if the God you do not believe in created intercessory prayer? What if asking him for things that he already wants to do is part of what prayer actually is?