Lindor trade ideas

[Gson]

He completely lost his velocity? How many innings did he pitch the prior season? Think what you want, butMC and CA hold this kid in high regard.

@CDav.. over the past two season prior to the 2020 season, McKenzie has had bouts of velocity loss.. In 2018, heading into the playoffs.. he dropped velo and was sidelined and said to prepare for the winter. That was around September of 2018. I think it was a castrovince comment..something on CBS Sports Baseball or Rotowire. There was no other discussion fatigue is the reason.. no injury.. just a young kid that didn't have the ability to progress through the playoffs.. and the CLEFO supporting it.. Then in 2019.. McKenzie did have a pair of actual injuries.. one was a forearm strain.. the other an "upper back" ailment.. again.. he experienced a loss of velocity and was shut down..first for six weeks.. then the rest of the way.. after the next injury.. So.. he has been injured.. but mostly nagging things.. Throughout this time.. the CLEFO was more than willing to allow him to step away.. rest and rehabilitate..

He's getting to be a grown up now.. less of that is going to be acceptable.. but it's still going to be a "kid gloves" situation until McKenzie arrives in his mid 20's.. still a couple three years away..

 

[CDAV45]

@CDav.. over the past two season prior to the 2020 season, McKenzie has had bouts of velocity loss.. In 2018, heading into the playoffs.. he dropped velo and was sidelined and said to prepare for the winter. That was around September of 2018. I think it was a castrovince comment..something on CBS Sports Baseball or Rotowire. There was no other discussion fatigue is the reason.. no injury.. just a young kid that didn't have the ability to progress through the playoffs.. and the CLEFO supporting it.. Then in 2019.. McKenzie did have a pair of actual injuries.. one was a forearm strain.. the other an "upper back" ailment.. again.. he experienced a loss of velocity and was shut down..first for six weeks.. then the rest of the way.. after the next injury.. So.. he has been injured.. but mostly nagging things.. Throughout this time.. the CLEFO was more than willing to allow him to step away.. rest and rehabilitate..

He's getting to be a grown up now.. less of that is going to be acceptable.. but it's still going to be a "kid gloves" situation until McKenzie arrives in his mid 20's.. still a couple three years away..

Don't disagree with that at all Gson. I would expect a loss of velocity over the course of a 6-9 inning game for any pitcher that hasn't pitched a full season in over 2 yrs. There are no "red flags" with Triston IMO other than he had a couple of unfortunate, badly timed minor injuries that have put a dent in his stamina. It takes time and good mechanics to build up enough stamina to pitch a 6-9 inning major league game. He'll get there and what he has done so far is nothing short of impressive, to me anyway.

Coach said that he hasn't pitched as well as I think he has. That's blatantly false. We've all seen him pitch and his overall numbers support that he pitched extremely well. Especially when you factor in that he hasn't pitched a real game in almost 2 seasons. I just don't get the uncertainty some are having.

He just turned 23 in August, so I don't know if he's getting to be a grown up just yet. Pitchers tend to hit their primes at around 27, but this kid seems to be ahead of the curve. I almost like the idea of him pitching with less than his best stuff. Emphasis on pitching, because if he can pitch when he's able to carry his stuff late into games then we have ourselves another gem. I love the kid's attitude, intelligence, and personality.

 

[CDAV45]

It was weird. His first few starts he was hitting 95 on the gun but his last few he rarely even hit 92-93. Mostly 90-91. I thought he looked like Plutko. Maybe they had him working on something but I think he got tired.

He absolutely got tired and when he came out of the BP late in the season his velocity rebounded. Would you expect any of the other SP's velocity to maintain for 6-9 innings if they hadn't really pitched in 2 yrs?

 

[daddywags]

He absolutely got tired and when he came out of the BP late in the season his velocity rebounded. Would you expect any of the other SP's velocity to maintain for 6-9 innings if they hadn't really pitched in 2 yrs?

It wasn't innings 6-9. In his last three starts he pitched 5 innings, 4-1/3 innings and 4 innings. I might be wrong but I believe he never hit 95 in any of those starts, even in the first inning. Again, I'm going by memory and could be wrong. It's not worth arguing over. We'll see what happens in 2021.

 

[sportscoach]

He absolutely got tired and when he came out of the BP late in the season his velocity rebounded. Would you expect any of the other SP's velocity to maintain for 6-9 innings if they hadn't really pitched in 2 yrs?

There wasn't something right about it. I rarely see someone lose that much velocity. How many other pitchers have you seen lose that much velocity between starts ever that didn't have an injury? Even in spring trainings dead arm period, you don't see that big of a drop (Verlander was the opposite, he actually threw faster the more tired his arm was for most of his career)

 

[Steve_424]

Therein lies my point. It’s a little early in the game to label him injury prone. Maybe he is and maybe he isn’t. What we do know is that he had a muscle injury in his upper back and that he pitched phenomenally well this past season.

He missed 2 months of 2018 with forearm soreness then missed all of 2019 with a lat injury and pectoral strain. His unique frame - 6'5", 165 - raises serious durability concerns. Maybe he ends up being fine and I hope he is. He's an easy kid to root for. But I also can't pretend there aren't some legitimate concerns about him moving forward.

 

[Steve_424]

It wasn't innings 6-9. In his last three starts he pitched 5 innings, 4-1/3 innings and 4 innings. I might be wrong but I believe he never hit 95 in any of those starts, even in the first inning. Again, I'm going by memory and could be wrong. It's not worth arguing over. We'll see what happens in 2021.

Triston McKenzie fighting through velocity drop, lack of best stuff: Walk-Off Thoughts

Triston McKenzie on Saturday night battled a continued dip in his velocity, though he remained effective.

www.beaconjournal.com

"In his MLB debut on Aug. 22, McKenzie's fastball average was 94.5 mph. He was understandably a bit amped up, so it wasn't as concerning when that dipped a bit over his next few starts. But on Saturday night it dipped again, to an average fastball velocity of 90.6 mph. How McKenzie would be able to physically handle a starter's workload in the majors has long been the major question surrounding his projections. He's had the stuff, but injuries have held him back, and his 6-foot-5, 165-pound frame left concerns with durability over the long haul. It's one of the reasons the Indians have tried to hold him to that 85-pitch limit."

 

[Gson]

Enough of the Triston McKenzie discussions in the Lindor Trade Ideas thread...

Alas.. another version of a trade has been posted by what I would believe is a fan of the Jays.. who sees their primary need as Starting Pitching.. can't dispute that.. anyway, here is his proposal:

Reds get Francisco Lindor

Jays get Sonny Gray

Indians get:
Jonathan Davis OF (Jays)
Lourdes Gurriel Jr. OF (Jays)
Adam Kloffenstein SP (Jays)
Sean Reid-Foley SP (Jays)

I suggested the inclusion of Jonathan Davis was just a throw in that meant nothing. The valuation of the trade along with the exclusion of Jonathan Davis could be and should be balanced with a better OF prospect... such as one from the Reds like Aristides Aquino, Mike Siani, & Rece Hinds (he's playing 3B, but is listed as likely to be moved to a corner OF, RF, as he has both arm and speed).. All of these additions would change the valuation of the trade ever so slightly in the Indians favor, but, not by more than 1.2 to 2.0 MM.

Thoughts?..

 

[daddywags]

I don't understand trading Lindor for pitchers or catchers period. If they want a pitcher as a throw in, then fine, but not as key piece(s). Besides that Toronto's main need is pitching but they're trading us two pitchers? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[sportscoach]

Enough of the Triston McKenzie discussions in the Lindor Trade Ideas thread...

Alas.. another version of a trade has been posted by what I would believe is a fan of the Jays.. who sees their primary need as Starting Pitching.. can't dispute that.. anyway, here is his proposal:

Reds get Francisco Lindor

Jays get Sonny Gray

Indians get:
Jonathan Davis OF (Jays)
Lourdes Gurriel Jr. OF (Jays)
Adam Kloffenstein SP (Jays)
Sean Reid-Foley SP (Jays)

I suggested the inclusion of Jonathan Davis was just a throw in that meant nothing. The valuation of the trade along with the exclusion of Jonathan Davis could be and should be balanced with a better OF prospect... such as one from the Reds like Aristides Aquino, Mike Siani, & Rece Hinds (he's playing 3B, but is listed as likely to be moved to a corner OF, RF, as he has both arm and speed).. All of these additions would change the valuation of the trade ever so slightly in the Indians favor, but, not by more than 1.2 to 2.0 MM.

Thoughts?..

Thats an interesting idea, but I think the pieces will be way different. If it will be a three way like that, I think we will end up with prospects from both teams getting move and whatnot. Its never going to be that simple since that's just essentially two trades not one.

 

[Gson]

Thats an interesting idea, but I think the pieces will be way different....

How different?

 

[Gson]

I don't understand trading Lindor for pitchers or catchers period. If they want a pitcher as a throw in, then fine, but not as key piece(s). Besides that Toronto's main need is pitching but they're trading us two pitchers? Doesn't make sense to me.

What don't you understand?.. Young controllable pitching is the gold standard for prospect currency.. Trading young pitching (like Kloffenstein or Reid-Foley) will return just about anything you want.. and almost always is in your favor..

 

[daddywags]

What don't you understand?.. Young controllable pitching is the gold standard for prospect currency.. Trading young pitching (like Kloffenstein or Reid-Foley) will return just about anything you want.. and almost always is in your favor..

If that's true then the proposed Lindor trade is in the Jays favor. I'd rather trade Lindor in a deal that's at worst neutral and doesn't rely on more trades (which are always uncertain and especially so in this economic climate) in order to be successful.

IOW, I personally will be disappointed if they trade Franky for players they hope to be able to trade for other players. Just get the players you want now. We have the top trade target in MLB we should act like it.

 

[sportscoach]

How different?

Thats not a three team trade, its two separate trades. It would be Lindor going to the Jays then Lindor getting traded directly for Gray.

 

[Gson]

Thats not a three team trade, its two separate trades. It would be Lindor going to the Jays then Lindor getting traded directly for Gray.

so...back to the question.. how different?