Moves the Indians should make for the 2nd half

[MadThinker88]

I've liked the work by Justin Garza in the Tribe bullpen so far.
I have to wonder how long until Cam Hill gets called up to augment the bullpen & make a case for staying on the 40 man roster or being DFA'd after the season so the roster spot can be used by someone else..

 

[Meatwad]

Yeah I think we have to take a step back there.

For SS we have Gimenez, but we also have Amed still as an emergency option as well as Arias and Freeman potentially rising up sooner or later.

For 2B I don't see why Owen Miller is given the job - he might have more promise than Clement and Chang but we also have other options like Amed and maybe later in the year, Freeman.

To me getting Straw adds to our versatility by making Amed available for the infield. Now there's nothing to say that we can't have Amed in LF and Straw in CF for instance, but Owen Miller has a lot to show before he is given any kind of job.

At 2B you mention having other options but then you mention one guy, Amed. Freeman will be, as you say, later in the year. Chang and Clement are a non-factor for a starting position anywhere. They're utility dudes at best.

You want Amed to take 2nd, potentially? The same guy who can't hold down SS and they don't trust in the OF? Just don't see it.

If Amed is in LF, we have reeeeeal big problems. I mean, we already got problems. That's really not helping those problems..

Amed is not in the future plans. His future is trade bait.

So as I see it 2B is Owen's until the younger guys are ready. It's now time to learn everything about him. You learn with ABs & time.

 

[Meatwad]

I would not agree with that conclusion..

Straw getting the rest of 2021 to audition in CF - Yes. Makes sense.
But just handing it to him for 2022 can backfire just like it did when CLE looked to give Mercado CF in 2020 (after 2019).

Tell Amed Rosario to work on being in the OF all off-season. Have him ready to compete for CF.

Perhaps Amed out plays Myles Straw in spring training. Maybe not.

Having those 2 allows CLE to non-tender Zimmer & one of Daniel Johnson/ Oscar Mercado to create the needed 40 man roster space in November.

Antonetti is talking like Straw is the guy. He is a plus fielder. He can get on base decently. He doesn't strike out. He can steal some bags. This is the CF for the next year. There is absolutely no reason for them to trade for Straw if they don't expect him to hold the job at least through 2022.

They tried the Rosario experiment in CF. If they thought it had a future we'd still be seeing it mixed in from time to time. To me it's clear they've binned the idea.

As to your last point, let's see how the last 60 games play out, maybe we learn something new about these bums in LF and RF but having Rosario on the roster does not play a role in deciding to keep or ditch Zimmer/Mercado/Daniel Johnson/insert speedy defender who can't generate runs here.

And if like the other poster you're envisioning a world where Amed can compete for LF or RF, good god, just end me.

Once you eliminate the possibility of Amed being the long term SS, the logical path is, he gone. If you see him as long term SS, ok, fine (also you got some 'splainin to do). If that's the argument, I can see it. But it doesn't stick. Gimenez, Freeman, Arias.. he's not staying at short and now he's got no place to go. I like his personality and his play style but bye-bye.

 

[KluberSociety]

At 2B you mention having other options but then you mention one guy, Amed. Freeman will be, as you say, later in the year. Chang and Clement are a non-factor for a starting position anywhere. They're utility dudes at best.

You want Amed to take 2nd, potentially? The same guy who can't hold down SS and they don't trust in the OF? Just don't see it.

If Amed is in LF, we have reeeeeal big problems. I mean, we already got problems. That's really not helping those problems..

Amed is not in the future plans. His future is trade bait.

So as I see it 2B is Owen's until the younger guys are ready. It's now time to learn everything about him. You learn with ABs & time.

Yes I would much rather have Amed than Miller now if he was given some opportunity to work on playing 2B. We rag on Amed for not being great defensively but he's got much better skills than Miller. He also is proven to be at least mediocre offensively, which I think Miller can probably achieve some day but the defensive gap is hard to overcome.

This is all ignoring the fact that we have both Gimenez and Arias and even if neither are exactly 2B kind of guys one of them (probably Arias) would have to slot over to 2B in order to get them both on the field at the same time. While I have no clue what Gimenez and/or Arias will turn into, they are high ceiling players. And Arias is already putting up Miller-like offensive numbers in AAA at 3 years younger (Miller only has him beaten significantly in BABIP).

I'm not in love with Amed, and have suggested he move down in the lineup (he is hurting the team in the #2 hole). But his mediocre hitting and acceptable defense are a bar that I just don't see our minor leaguers (including Miller in this) jumping over or a while.

I guess I'm just not much of a wishcaster. If Amed was the 8th best player on the field for us we'd be in a much better situation than we are now.

 

[Meatwad]

Yes I would much rather have Amed than Miller now if he was given some opportunity to work on playing 2B. We rag on Amed for not being great defensively but he's got much better skills than Miller. He also is proven to be at least mediocre offensively, which I think Miller can probably achieve some day but the defensive gap is hard to overcome.

This is all ignoring the fact that we have both Gimenez and Arias and even if neither are exactly 2B kind of guys one of them (probably Arias) would have to slot over to 2B in order to get them both on the field at the same time. While I have no clue what Gimenez and/or Arias will turn into, they are high ceiling players. And Arias is already putting up Miller-like offensive numbers in AAA at 3 years younger (Miller only has him beaten significantly in BABIP).

I'm not in love with Amed, and have suggested he move down in the lineup (he is hurting the team in the #2 hole). But his mediocre hitting and acceptable defense are a bar that I just don't see our minor leaguers (including Miller in this) jumping over or a while.

I guess I'm just not much of a wishcaster. If Amed was the 8th best player on the field for us we'd be in a much better situation than we are now.

In that case then we might as well have kept Cesar. We know who Cesar is. We know who Amed is. Amed is not a difference maker and may be net negative with his D. Let's at least see if Owen can hit the cover off the ball. Everybody says he's a hitter. "He hits." Well let's see. Amed is who he is and I'd rather go for young/upside at this stage. Get something from him on the trade market.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'll take the unknown over the mediocre known at this stage in the retool.

 

[KluberSociety]

In that case then we might as well have kept Cesar. We know who Cesar is. We know who Amed is. Amed is not a difference maker and may be net negative with his D. Let's at least see if Owen can hit the cover off the ball. Everybody says he's a hitter. "He hits." Well let's see. Amed is who he is and I'd rather go for young/upside at this stage. Get something from him on the trade market.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'll take the unknown over the mediocre known at this stage in the retool.

Cesar would help our team now, but we sold the present for the future. Not sure why bring him up.

Fangraphs has Rosario as saving 5 runs this year with his defense and 18 runs in his career. He may not be a great MLB shortstop and is going to be weaker than Gimenez, but he is a capable infielder and better than Miller at it.

If you want to see a difference maker, you can look at Miller's performance so far this year. The problem is the difference is for the negative. While I don't expect him to be nearly this bad going forward, it'll take a lot to show that he's able to play at Rosario's ~2.5 WAR pace.

Throwing young players into games hoping they are going to be "difference makers" just sounds like messiah searching to me. I'd rather some evidence first that Miller actually has what it takes.

 

[xmasbuck]

fielding is not the main concern with miller at this point

 

[mopete12]

Cesar would help our team now, but we sold the present for the future. Not sure why bring him up.

Fangraphs has Rosario as saving 5 runs this year with his defense and 18 runs in his career. He may not be a great MLB shortstop and is going to be weaker than Gimenez, but he is a capable infielder and better than Miller at it.

If you want to see a difference maker, you can look at Miller's performance so far this year. The problem is the difference is for the negative. While I don't expect him to be nearly this bad going forward, it'll take a lot to show that he's able to play at Rosario's ~2.5 WAR pace.

Throwing young players into games hoping they are going to be "difference makers" just sounds like messiah searching to me. I'd rather some evidence first that Miller actually has what it takes.

Baseball-Refernce and Statcast both have Ames’s defense as negative, which fits more to the eye test. In general, Ahmed’s statcast %’s are not fun to look at.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/amed-rosario-642708

 

[KluberSociety]

Baseball-Refernce and Statcast both have Ames’s defense as negative, which fits more to the eye test. In general, Ahmed’s statcast %’s are not fun to look at.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/amed-rosario-642708

I don't know how OAA is converted to runs but Fangraphs gives an extra 7.5 per (162 G x 9 innings/G) for SS positional adjustment. Rosario has gotten 20.25 extra runs saved just for playing SS. So while he's below average for a SS even according to Fangraphs, he's still seen as not actively hurting the cause. Which I think is consistent enough with the eye test.

To show a contrast, Gimenez has gotten 2.2 "bonus" for his SS / 2B / 3B innings, and overall has 3.9, so he actually is 1.7 above average so far.

The main topic of the conversation, Owen Miller, does not appear to have the athleticism/agility necessary to be a good middle infielder. I believe if he hits his offensive ceiling, he'd probably be our future every day 3B assuming JRam is gone.

 

[mopete12]

I don't know how OAA is converted to runs but Fangraphs gives an extra 7.5 per (162 G x 9 innings/G) for SS positional adjustment. Rosario has gotten 20.25 extra runs saved just for playing SS. So while he's below average for a SS even according to Fangraphs, he's still seen as not actively hurting the cause. Which I think is consistent enough with the eye test.

To show a contrast, Gimenez has gotten 2.2 "bonus" for his SS / 2B / 3B innings, and overall has 3.9, so he actually is 1.7 above average so far.

The main topic of the conversation, Owen Miller, does not appear to have the athleticism/agility necessary to be a good middle infielder. I believe if he hits his offensive ceiling, he'd probably be our future every day 3B assuming JRam is gone.

I think Miller should play almost everyday, mainly at 2B, but also some 3B and 1B to see if he can hit. His defense at 2B won’t be elite, but his scouting profile sounds like he will be acceptable there.

I would bring up Gimenez and play him at SS everyday, but I don’t know what to do with Amed.

As someone said above, Rosario is basically a known quantity (he’s still young but he has a lot of at bats and has not shown any improvement) and is mediocre at overall at best. The Tribe needs to use the rest of the year to see what some of the other prospects can do.

 

[buzzdog]

I think Miller should play almost everyday, mainly at 2B, but also some 3B and 1B to see if he can hit. His defense at 2B won’t be elite, but his scouting profile sounds like he will be acceptable there.

I would bring up Gimenez and play him at SS everyday, but I don’t know what to do with Amed.

As someone said above, Rosario is basically a known quantity (he’s still young but he has a lot of at bats and has not shown any improvement) and is mediocre at overall at best. The Tribe needs to use the rest of the year to see what some of the other prospects can do.

Funny, when Amed comes to the plate I have more confidence that he'll produce than just about anyone except for Franmill or Jose. Here everyone talks about him like he's a lost cause. I think he has untapped upside potential.

I love his speed but I'm not crazy about his defense. Given his age I have a hard time thinking he couldn't improve on his defense by doing proper drills in the off season. Playing defense is about muscle memory and pure physical ability, and Rosario has lots of physical ability so he needs to work hard on his glove work and on getting a quicker release throwing to first base.

 

[CATS44]

Taking inventory of the outfield situation...

Every true outfielder on the roster, excepting Johnson, has been around for a while.

Straw, with about a full season of PAs...602...has been worth 3.1 fWAR. His present OPS is right on his career numbers...662....and his def fWAR is 9.9. Anybody would take 3 WAR per season. He is 26.

The intrigue with Harold is puzzling, except that he is fun to watch...a fat kid running so well. Except that it doesn't translate to baseball production. In 708 PAs his fWAR is .07. His 2021 OPS is right on his career number of .721, but his offensive production has been worth less that Straw's. Liability is too kind to describe his defense. He is 26.

Mercado has been worth 1.5 fWAR in 649 PAs. His 2021 OPS is 50 points below his career number of .688. He is a solid defender. He is 26.

Zimmer in 675 PAs has been worth 2.3 fWAR. His 2021 OPS is about 30 points higher than his career .659, but is driven by nine HBPs, which have added about 50 points. His career K rate is 33%, but is much worse this year. He is a plus defender, but not as good as Straw. He is 28. Both he and Mercado are out of options.

None of the above have trended upward over several years, and are no longer young in baseball terms. Their numbers are their numbers. Expecting anything else is foolish.

Johnson is also 26, and outside of a very good stint in Columbus in 2019, powered by a .370 BABIP, has not looked good since being acquired in the Gomes trade. In spite of optimistic reviews of his defense, the eye test of his play in RF...in extremely SSS... does not agree.

Nothing suggests that...outside of Straw...any of these guys are more than a fourth or fifth OF.

For some unfathomable (to me) reason, Jones has not been playing every day in the OF. But even if he did, he does not look close to MLB ready at the plate. Folks talk about his slow start to the season and his heating up now, but slumps count just as much as hot streaks. Overall he has been about average this year, while his K rate has trended up for years, and his production against the norm has trended down.

Amed has the athletic ability to play MIF and the outfield, IF he was ever allowed to play something other than SS on a consisten basis. He has not been a plus producer at the plate, but his ability to play multiple positions would make him more valuable than his overall numbers. His career OPS is .703, and he is just under that this season. That is far better than any outfield option we have, other than Harold, who is a poor hitting DH. At 25, he is the youngest of the bunch.

In 2015, we had a lousy defense, although not nearly as bad as this season. But when Lindor was called up, the defense immediately became above average...immediately.

Once we get past Toronto, Gimenez should be inserted at SS.

Amed should be groomed as the super utility guy. He should play second, and get work in the outfield, esp since he would be far more productive vs lefties than any other OF option we have.

Amed career vs lefties...815 OPS.
Harold....718
Straw....509
Zimmer...593
Mercado...717

Neither Jones nor Johnson have ever shown much ability to hit lefties in the minors.

 

[Criznit]

In regards to the OF going forward, Palacios should not be completely overlooked. He is a 2B first, but playing in the OF fairly regularly. He is the inhouse replacement for Mercado, Harold, Cesar, or anyone else we line up at 2nd..

Massive logjam who deserves a shot vs. who deserves to play lining up for 2022. Might be the most active off-season we have seen in quite awhile, we have a lot of potential trade chips of various value

Amed is a wildcard. The acquisition of Straw suggest CF will not be a long term option. 2 extremely talented yet somewhat unproven SS await their time in AAA. Will Amed every hit enough to be an OF(LF) regular. Can he play 2nd base? Considering he will cost 2+mil in 2022, i think his future here is rather questionable myself.

 

[mopete12]

Funny, when Amed comes to the plate I have more confidence that he'll produce than just about anyone except for Franmill or Jose. Here everyone talks about him like he's a lost cause. I think he has untapped upside potential.

I love his speed but I'm not crazy about his defense. Given his age I have a hard time thinking he couldn't improve on his defense by doing proper drills in the off season. Playing defense is about muscle memory and pure physical ability, and Rosario has lots of physical ability so he needs to work hard on his glove work and on getting a quicker release throwing to first base.

He is more likely to put the ball in play than most people on the roster, but his productivity is below average (he's also tied with H. Ramirez and Hedges for most likely to strike out on a ball in the LH batter's box). His defense is strange because when he was a prospect, it was highly ranked, but he has not been good at SS in his time in the big leagues.

His +RC on the year is 89 which is not good. Here is a list of the hitters above him for the Tribe this year (I added Straw with his Houston stats):

Reyes - 144
J.Ramirez - 128
Bradely - 116
Luplow - 112
Hernandez - 100
Zimmer - 99
Straw - 94
H.Ramirez - 94
Rivera - 91
A.Rosario - 89

I agree with CATS suggestion, treat Rosario as a super-sub and let Gimenez play SS.

 

[Alabuckeye]

Ahmed is 25.......offensively, I agree with Buzz, I trust him more than anyone other than La Mole and JRam

Zimmer and Straw are the same player. The fact that we traded for him should tell us how the FO views this comparison.

Tyler Freeman is out for the year, so we aren't seeing what he can do this year. Nor probably the beginning of next year given the injury setback. Given this, in my mind it makes sense to shift Ahmed over to 2nd and play Gimenez at SS and see how that combo works.

Work Miller in at 3B/1B giving JRam a breather at times.