Moves the Indians should make for the 2nd half

[Gson]

Lynn is a free agent, about to turn 35.

Rodon is a free agent approaching 30, has a history of being very fragile, and was a consistent 4+ ERA guy prior to this season.

Kuechel is owed 18 million guaranteed in his age 34 season and is declining (and no one is taking that deal without the Sox paying a portion of his salary or including a good prospect).

The Chi Sox better hope Kopech is ready to start next season or it will be Giolito, Cease, and some dumpster dives with how much they're paying their offense.

If you'd take their pitching future over ours you're being very short-sighted.

I thought Jimmmy Lambert was a pretty darn good SP prospect & on the rise.. before he got injured.. his time line should be close to readiness for the 2022 season.. Not a staff ace, but not a AAAA SP.. he may be one of the internal candidates the CWSox rely on.. He's certainly not the solution..

 

[BimboColesHair]

FYI, Lynn signed an extension a month or two ago. He’s signed for the next two years and club option for 2024.

Even better then, IMO.

Let them ride an aging Lance Lynn of all people.

 

[CDAV45]

With what we have on the roster right now behind our rotation, where would we be had the rotation stayed healthy?

Where would Chicago be right now if it had lost 30 starts from its top three SPs, even if its offense had stayed totally healthy?

The biggest single issue in a season for any team is the health of its pitching staff, esp its rotation.

Over the last two seasons with our anemic offense, what is our head to head record vs Chicago?

Folks who insist that offense is an equal part of a recipe for winning as pitching...and I mean this kindly...don't understand baseball. The winning formula has always been pitching-pitching-pitching-defense-offense.

The FO will address the offense in the off season.

Name a singe WS winner that had a weak offense. Everyone here knows that winning cannot be done without good pitching, but if you think you can coast through these deep lineups without giving up a few runs then I think it might be you who has a poor understanding. I'm not trying to be argumentative here CATS. I actually agree that if a team is going to lean one way or the other it should absolutely lean toward the pitching side, but I think they have that covered already. Thing is, I think you feel the same so I don't understand why you're taking polite pot shots at the idea of needing a good offense. I'm not speaking for anyone other than myself, but I'm not saying they need the best offense in the league. I am saying that their success will be limited with one like they currently have. It's terrible and not worthy of playoff contention IMO. Maybe the answers lie within, maybe they go outside to get help. I don't give a shit how it happens, but it does need to happen.

 

[LL3]

Name a singe WS winner that had a weak offense. Everyone here knows that winning cannot be done without good pitching, but if you think you can coast through these deep lineups without giving up a few runs then I think it might be you who has a poor understanding. I'm not trying to be argumentative here CATS. I actually agree that if a team is going to lean one way or the other it should absolutely lean toward the pitching side, but I think they have that covered already. Thing is, I think you feel the same so I don't understand why you're taking polite pot shots at the idea of needing a good offense. I'm not speaking for anyone other than myself, but I'm not saying they need the best offense in the league. I am saying that their success will be limited with one like they currently have. It's terrible and not worthy of playoff contention IMO. Maybe the answers lie within, maybe they go outside to get help. I don't give a shit how it happens, but it does need to happen.

I guess we need to define terms, because even this year's frequently vilified iteration of offense is pretty much middle of the pack in Runs scored and Home Runs (having played a few games less than most others) vs. the AL and MLB as a whole. The club is near the top in steals, but pretty low in walks, even as we strike out less than most, too. It is is difficult to frame our current offense as weak -- frustrating and often mediocre -- sure. It seems like if we just improved OBP by a few increments, we might even stray into "good" territory when it comes to putting runs on the board.
Sure I want our offense to improve, but defensive upgrades (particularly at SS) would go a long way, too. No reason not to do some of both, but if we get lucky on the health front (pitching in particular), we are not that far off from being right back in the mix.

 

[CATS44]

I guess it depends on how you define contention.

Does anybody disagree that we would be contending right now, going into September, if we had not lost the top of our rotation?

Does anybody not think that 30 more starts from Biebs-Civale-Plesac would have meant more wins than 30 from Morgan-Hentges-Mejia? How many? 5? 10? 15? Let's go for ten wins. Our record would be 74-54. We'd be a game behind Chicago and in the second WC spot, a behind NY and a game ahead of Boston. We would be on pace to win 94 games.

Is that contention? If so, we would be contending with an offense that is ranked 9th in runs scored.

Last year, we finished one game behind Minny, and tied with Chicago, in a 60 game season. We were on pace to win 95 games.

Is that contention? If so, we did it with the 13th ranked offense in runs scored.

In 2019 we won 93 games with the 7th ranked offense. Is a 93 win team a contender?

In my book, any team that wins 90+ wins in a season is a contender...and pitching is the key. I will take 90+ wins for the next twenty years.

 

[CDAV45]

I guess we need to define terms, because even this year's frequently vilified iteration of offense is pretty much middle of the pack in Runs scored and Home Runs (having played a few games less than most others) vs. the AL and MLB as a whole. The club is near the top in steals, but pretty low in walks, even as we strike out less than most, too. It is is difficult to frame our current offense as weak -- frustrating and often mediocre -- sure. It seems like if we just improved OBP by a few increments, we might even stray into "good" territory when it comes to putting runs on the board.
Sure I want our offense to improve, but defensive upgrades (particularly at SS) would go a long way, too. No reason not to do some of both, but if we get lucky on the health front (pitching in particular), we are not that far off from being right back in the mix.

Right now we rank 24th in OBP, 14th in SLG, 19th in OPS, 22nd in 2B, 9th in 3B, and 12th in HR. We play in one of the weakest divisions in baseball with the Tigers, Royals, and Twins all being non-competitive with lackluster rotations. The offense needs to improve and I think MC/CA will see that it does.

My desire to see an improved offense doesn't mean I don't want to see the defense improve as well. I value pitching, defense, and offense, and championship caliber teams in varying degrees do all of those things well. I think we already have the pitching for a deep playoff run. We're just missing a bat or 2 IMO.

According to my calculations we are 18-37 against teams with records of .500 or better and I'd like to know how we fared against them offensively. While our pitching would have certainly been better without the 3 injuries, I don't know if that evens our record significantly against winning teams. It certainly would improve it some, but that's a 19 game swing against the best MLB has to offer. I guess I have my doubts when a large portion of the offense is provide by 3 guys. All of LF, RF, C, 1B, and 2B have given this team poor offensive production. You can put CF in there as well until Straw arrived and he's not lighting the world on fire right now, but he's a vast improvement.

 

[Alabuckeye]

I think we could have won 9 more against winning teams with Bieber, Civale and Plesac healthy all year instead of having Logan Morgan and mckenzie get lit up night after night for almost 3 months

 

[DCTribefan]

Even better then, IMO.

Let them ride an aging Lance Lynn of all people.

Tribe was well-served by an aging Orel Hershiser and Dennis Martinez. Just saying.

 

[DCTribefan]

I think we could have won 9 more against winning teams with Bieber, Civale and Plesac healthy all year instead of having Logan Morgan and mckenzie get lit up night after night for almost 3 months

You forgot Mejia.

 

[DCTribefan]

I guess we need to define terms, because even this year's frequently vilified iteration of offense is pretty much middle of the pack in Runs scored and Home Runs (having played a few games less than most others) vs. the AL and MLB as a whole. The club is near the top in steals, but pretty low in walks, even as we strike out less than most, too. It is is difficult to frame our current offense as weak -- frustrating and often mediocre -- sure. It seems like if we just improved OBP by a few increments, we might even stray into "good" territory when it comes to putting runs on the board.
Sure I want our offense to improve, but defensive upgrades (particularly at SS) would go a long way, too. No reason not to do some of both, but if we get lucky on the health front (pitching in particular), we are not that far off from being right back in the mix.

You forgot to note their #1 in games being no hit.

 

[Alabuckeye]

You forgot Mejia.

i must’ve blocked those starts from my mind

 

[DCTribefan]

i must’ve blocked those starts from my mind

If only we could.

 

[Gson]

I think we could have won 9 more against winning teams with Bieber, Civale and Plesac healthy all year instead of having Logan Morgan and mckenzie get lit up night after night for almost 3 months

11 (eleven) more games..

 

[PPark]

11 (eleven) more games..

V.O: As the 2021 season fades to its twilight Tribe fans enter their annual woulda/coulda phase one last time

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

11 (eleven) more games..

Probably about right. The Indians record this year in games started by each pitcher:

Civale 12-3
Bieber 10-4
Plesac 11-8
McKenzie 7-8
Morgan 6-7
Mejia 2-9
Allen 1-6

Hentges has started 12 games but in most of them he only pitched 2-4 innings so I'm leaving him out.

The White Sox have four starters with 24-27 starts. Civale and Bieber have 15 and 14 so it's fair to say they've each missed 10-12 starts for a total of 20-24. Mejia and Allen have combined for 18 starts with Indians going 3-15. So if Civale and Bieber (22-7) had taken Mejia and Allen's starts (3-15) plus a couple of Hentges' starts I could see them going something like 15-5 instead of 3-17 which would be 12 losses that would have been wins, giving the Tribe a record of 76-52 and putting them one game ahead of the White Sox.

This is assuming nothing changed with Plesac.

By the way, Civale has been extremely fortunate with run support this year. In the 12 games he started that the Indians won, the Tribe has scored 11, 10, 9, 9, 8, 8, 7, 7, 4, 4, 4, and 3 runs. This is the opposite of 2019, IIRC, when they couldn't buy a run when Civale pitched.

Quantrill has been the opposite. Just in the last five weeks he's had five starts where he gave up 0, 1, 1, 1, and 2 runs in six innings or more and the Indians still lost due to lack of run support or a bullpen implosion. Cal is 4-2 but should be 10-2 if he won all the games where he allowed two or fewer runs.